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  • Don't Care

    Green is dying nobodies cares. There is virtually no enforcement of ecological laws and regulations in this industry. There are thousands of laws around the world with no enforcement. Virtually every green certifying body has very little in the way of chemicals used for manufacturing. All of the green certifications aren't worth the paper they are printed on. There is no way to enforce them or any ramifications. The worst that can happen is you loose your certificate.
    Since it is apparent that not a single body or association except for ( INGEDE - the International Association of the Deinking Industry ), is worried about anything other than their own preservation why should i bother with this.

    The comment made by Sustainable " You Can't Fix Stupid" pretty well sums it up.

  • #2
    good riddance... certifications just line the pockets of the certifiers.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by TheProcessIStheproduct View Post
      good riddance... certifications just line the pockets of the certifiers.
      I was once told that I was certifiable.

      Best, gordo

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      • #4
        I think Green printer has hit on a huge silent part of this industry. I have been in many shops throughout the USA and I heard from just about all of them that the green movement is dead or never even made it to there. A very big portion informed me that the general public doesn't know anything about sustainable green printing manufacturing nor do they even care. The education of the public is the only help for this. Most of the green about printing is directed toward the industry or should we call it the choir. The choir is getting tired and bored of being preached to. Let's get something started and teach the public. All suppliers from equipment to consumables are effected and should join in any activity directed at the general public.
        Last edited by Sustainable; 05-20-2012, 10:07 AM.

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        • #5
          Green printing is more difficult than the old methods. The following comments are based on my experience with greener printing. The green solvents don't clean as well so washing blankets and rollers takes longer. Time is money. The green fountain solutions have a narrower operating band which can lead to spoilage. Spoilage is money. Running green requires a well-maintained and finely tuned press. Maintenance requires time and parts which equal money. In any business, the bottom line is the bottom line. When green methods become cheaper to implement than the old ways, then green will take hold. Otherwise, forget it.

          On the other hand, printing is an industry that seems to shorten lifespans. Is it the chemicals we have used, the stress of the job or the bad habits many of us have picked up to reduce that stress? I have had three former co-workers die of cancer in the last 18 months and two more diagnosed with stage 4 cancer in the last two months. With 35 years in the industry, the damage has pretty much been done to me. Greener chemicals won't have much of an effect on my cancer risk at this point, but there's still hope for those just getting started.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by CD102 View Post
            Green printing is more difficult than the old methods. The following comments are based on my experience with greener printing. The green solvents don't clean as well so washing blankets and rollers takes longer. Time is money. The green fountain solutions have a narrower operating band which can lead to spoilage. Spoilage is money. Running green requires a well-maintained and finely tuned press. Maintenance requires time and parts which equal money. In any business, the bottom line is the bottom line. When green methods become cheaper to implement than the old ways, then green will take hold. Otherwise, forget it.

            On the other hand, printing is an industry that seems to shorten lifespans. Is it the chemicals we have used, the stress of the job or the bad habits many of us have picked up to reduce that stress? I have had three former co-workers die of cancer in the last 18 months and two more diagnosed with stage 4 cancer in the last two months. With 35 years in the industry, the damage has pretty much been done to me. Greener chemicals won't have much of an effect on my cancer risk at this point, but there's still hope for those just getting started.
            There are quite a few suppliers of green printing technology and I know of only 2 that provide systems that work in real production environments Amerikal and BestChem&Supply. With proper training these 2 are the most economical offset printing methods available. This systems work for both energy curable and oxidative drying.
            There are shops who have tried these systems and failed because of not following training, procedures and instructions. I have been in shops were the mangment says that their press crews are untrainable. Some things cannot be fixed until properly educated management can manage the pressroom.
            Last edited by Sustainable; 05-29-2012, 09:16 AM.

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            • #7
              I would have to agree with Sustainable. I have been using Amerikal's products for many years now with great success. They are environmentally friendly and safe as far as health concerns.
              As far as production efficiencies I have not found anything that can beat them. We are a high end commercial shop with high expectations from our vendors as our customers have of us. Amerikal has never let me down.

              Efficiency is high, waste is low, print quality is high, I can't complain.

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              • #8
                marketing green is simply another sales gimmick. efficient technologies in general only are taken into account if over all costs are measured in the economy. If dumping toxic waste is measured as an economic loss (and those losses are not just "dumped" on nature) then those who seek opportunities will develop from the loss.

                The fact of the matter is, we still use early 19th century combustion engine designs rather than moving towards ceramic turbines that have a higher energy yield due to their design using the thermal components of the energy. Laziness and protection of the producers of this old technology is what makes us keep putting more bells and whistles on an old technology.

                Same goes for the print industry.... or any other industry you pick for that matter.... Wind included!!!

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                • #9
                  Pressroom consumables that are both environmentaly friendly & also safe for the user will never have the same wide operating window as most harmful - standard consumables. One will always need the press condition & settings to be of a good standard, the other will still work & cover up a ill maintaned machine.

                  One has to ask themselves -
                  Do you want to use a technology that is safe but requires a commitment to maintanance, correct opperating procedures & a slightly tighter operating window

                  or

                  Do you want to use a technology that is harmful but cover's up for a lack of press maintanance / condition, gives you a wider operating window & less chance of issues from miss use.

                  If I had the choice I would choose the safer option..

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                  • #10
                    This is extremely humorous CD102 and Lukew talk about lack of maintenance and the narrow operating window of green materials. Again the misnomer is spread! Where do these guys get this stuff? For any press to work correctly it must be maintained. Even the crappy chemistry works a hell of a lot better with a properly maintained press. A properly maintained press can easily be 30% up to 50% more productive no matter what type of chemistry is being used.

                    Has this ignorance permeated the industry?
                    Last edited by Sustainable; 05-30-2012, 08:18 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Sustainable: I'm not knocking the green chemicals please understand that.

                      Yes of course a well maintained press will operate more efficently whether your using green chemicals or nasty chemicals.

                      My point was that The nasty chemicals will still work and cover up issues on the press..
                      A low flash wash will still washup with worn blades & with roller settings that are less then desirable.
                      A fount with 10 - 15% alcohol will still operate when dampening rollers are cactus.

                      Taken from ******
                      The key to implementing ****** in any pressroom is strong management. Well managed organizations share the desire to be the best and are easy to identify; they are clean and organized, the "PRESS EQUIPMENT IS MAINTAINED PROPERLY", and procedures are in place and followed.

                      For instance, say you walk into a pressroom that had 10 large multi coloured presses, they are all operating with 10% alcohol & ink rollers are old, dampening rollers outside their recommended shore A hardness.
                      Wash up blades are not new & they are using a 40 deg wash....
                      But they are putting work onto the floor at a high standard.

                      Are you saying that you can transfer them to the safe green chemistry without a change of rollers or washup blades and they will continue to operate with the same window?

                      It's unfortunate but with the current economy and the difficulty that printing firms are having, they do look at all these things when choosing products..
                      I've spoken to numerous consumable guys here that are simply selling standard chemicals & now trying to get customers to go alcohol free and they said it's a real slog...
                      They said Accounts management of printing firms look at one figure and that is the initial cost of the product & then any additional costs to use that product.

                      We have for the last few years been trying to push 100% recycled stocks but there has been very little up take as companies simply don't want to pay the extra $. Doesn't matter how much greener it may be.

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                      • #12
                        Here's what I'll tell you about my current plant. I work on a Heidi CD102 which has 4 crews. 2 of the operators keep taking the bridge rollers out of the dampers. When they wash up units, they screw the bridge rollers in as tight as they will go. Of course, this amount of pressure is excessive. Many, many times I have changed damper forms because the ends have become pitted/wrinkled/damaged from this abuse. The plant didn't even own a durometer until after I got there and begged for one. They still don't have any standards for roller shore hardness so maybe out of spec rollers get changed, maybe they don't. When we do a periodic maintenance on a unit, we don't get half the time to do the job that it deserves. And there are so many things on the press that need to be fixed that can't be because we've got to get product out on the floor. Would the plant be money ahead if things got fiexed? Probably, but those decisions are above my pay level. After a while a person gets tired of complaining to management and you just make do.

                        To be honest, our press room might be considered green. I haven't looked at the MSDS for the solvents or the fountain solution.

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                        • #13
                          You raised up a proper point.Its true that just the laws are in documents and are not being implemented effectively.
                          stubby coolers
                          Last edited by joseph; 07-07-2012, 07:14 AM.

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