HP360 - Latex G7 Targeted Color Calibration

Asures

Well-known member
I was wondering if anyone has successfully done a G7 Targeted (Not just a G7 Gray Scale) calibration on an HP360 latex? If so, can you please elaborate what rip/work-flow, ink limits, etc. were used in the process?

I tried curving it, tried device link profiles, tried an optimization - no luck with the LAB delta values on the Red Trap and the Yellow being short in density.

Just curious if people may have had success.
 
You can't select specific targeted ink densities on this machine with the way Onyx works. You can only select total ink limits with a pass count.

Having come from an offset background, this threw me off too..

Tried 300% 12 pass, 340% 16 pass. Same results.
 
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http://printplanet.com/forum/prepre...agement/23182-g7-calibrating-my-epson-proofer

No offence intended, however I am continually amazed at the gyrations that many seem to go through trying to use an analogue press based methodology on an inkjet device, even more so when the RIP does not have controls to make it behave in a similar manner to an analogue press.

Why doesn’t ICC based colour management or proprietary RIP colour table based colour management achieve the end game required? There is a target simulation profile and a device profile for the ink and media in use. It is then all up to the numbers, the simulation target is either in gamut or not for the device profile.

What am I missing?


Stephen Marsh
 
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No offense taken at all. I'm reaching out for assistance if it can be done.

As mentioned, I can achieve a G7 grayscale once calibrated - not targeted. I imported device link profiles, almost the same results as a paper linearization and applying the Gracol 2013 icc. This leads me to believe that the latex machine can't demonstrate the same level of ink transparency in the magenta and yellow required to achieve ISO color space by the customer.

Reading your link, Epsons don't seem to have those challenges. It may just be the limitations of the HP Latex machine.
 
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So what are the simulated lab colour value results for the magenta+yellow overprint when simulating GRACoL 2013 – and the lab colour values of yellow+magenta at full printer gamut without a simulation?


Stephen Marsh


No offense taken at all. I'm reaching out for assistance if it can be done.

As mentioned, I can achieve a G7 grayscale once calibrated - not targeted. I imported device link profiles, almost the same results as a paper linearization and applying the Gracol 2013 icc. This leads me to believe that the latex machine can't demonstrate the same level of ink transparency in the magenta and yellow required to achieve ISO color space by the customer.

Reading your link, Epsons don't seem to have those challenges. It may just be the limitations of the HP Latex machine.
 
Stephen,

The results were the same. Both Red Trap came in at Delta E of 12. Regardless of what actions were taken, no positive improvement was made. This is why I believe that it is what it is and it's just the limitations of the machine.

Gray balance - Delta E under 2.

Yellow alone was limited in the max density it could achieve as the ink limits drive ink density.

Just curious, have you done a G7 targeted on the HP 360?
 
I would not expect the full gamut lab values of the raw ink/media to be the same as simulation of GRACoL, I must be misunderstanding as the native colour response of the inkjet should be wider than a press space (although I have no direct experience profiling latex).

If I was not clear earlier, I don’t believe in applying G7 methods to an inkjet device, so no and my personal experience is aqueous and ecosolvent.


Stephen Marsh


Stephen,

The results were the same. Both Red Trap came in at Delta E of 12. Regardless of what actions were taken, no positive improvement was made. This is why I believe that it is what it is and it's just the limitations of the machine.

Gray balance - Delta E under 2.

Yellow alone was limited in the max density it could achieve as the ink limits drive ink density.

Just curious, have you done a G7 targeted on the HP 360?
 
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Ok,
First: What version of onyx are you running?
Second: What are you trying to achieve? I.e, Maximum gamut from your printer or to match a standard?

Edit:

IF you're trying to match a standard, I.e GRACoL 2013 in your case. I can assure you that your printer will have a larger colour space than GRACoL 2013.
What you should be doing is creating a media profile to achieve the maximum gamut out of the printer then apply the GRACoL 2013 profile to the image in photoshop before sending it to onyx. You can also soft proof it there to make sure your colours are in gamut also.
 
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Pauly,

Thanks for chiming in. I've created media profiles, then applied the destination ICC. I've tried applying device link profiles with the intentions of driving all the Deltas for RGB and CMYK to the lowest possible.

If submitting G7 gray scale, beautiful. G7 targeted - not happening. Again, I can't get the delta E's down on the Red Trap and the Yellow (Yellow behaves like lack of ink density).

The printer is being driven by Onyx 211 Thrive. Same results with an optimization being used through Color Tuner.

I believe it's just the limitations of the printer and inks trapping.

Stephen -

UV and Eco Solvent, not an issue. While you're not a fan of calibration to G7 on digital, most dedicated digital print shops or sign shops don't care about it. In the offset market and you have a shop entering digital arena, it comes stronger into play, obviously depending what their customer's expectations are (Printing for the movie industry, printing for high end design firms, doing national campaigns). At the end of the day, it all depends what the expectations are.
 
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So are you saying you created your ink restrictions, linearisations and then attached a profile to it?
Have you made your own ICC profile and used that?

I'm trying to work out if you're having the same problem i originally did.

What version of thrive? X10 X11 X12?
I also have 211 but i have a lot of features not included in the pack.

What i need to know is, When you're creating your media profile. You're doing your ink restrictions, Then linerisation + The G7 targerts inside that?. Ink limits?
Are you creating your own ICC profile at the next step? I.e printing the 944 targets, reading them and generating a profile though onyx OR importing the standard GRACol profile OR creating one via 3rd party application?

Send me a PM.
 
Stephen -

UV and Eco Solvent, not an issue. While you're not a fan of calibration to G7 on digital, most dedicated digital print shops or sign shops don't care about it. In the offset market and you have a shop entering digital arena, it comes stronger into play, obviously depending what their customer's expectations are (Printing for the movie industry, printing for high end design firms, doing national campaigns). At the end of the day, it all depends what the expectations are.


It is not that I am against specifications such as GRACoL or Fogra etc., it is just that I see no benefit from trying to use “G7 gray balance” calibration methods on a device that does not naturally or easily lend itself to those methods.

I’ll save Mike the trouble of posting a link to his site:

http://correctcolor.org/colorbycorrectcolorvsG7.html


Stephen Marsh
 
Thank you, Stephen.

Asures,

You're spending a lot of time here trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. Large format inkjet printing isn't lithography, and the same rules and processes just don't apply.

For instance: "Trap" is a term used in lithography, but it doesn't have any real meaning in inkjet. In litho, you have individual printing units laying down all the dots for a given part of an image in just the area where the blanket is in contact with the sheet, and as the sheet passes unit to unit, it's worthwhile to think oh how each ink reacts to and is affected by the others on the sheet as trap, since the already-down colors are in a sense 'trapping' the next ones down. But no such thing happens in inkjet. True, the inks interact, but they do in such different ways that to think of the process as 'trap' is going to lead you off chasing any number of wild geese.

Next thing to note is that most print buyers in the movie industry and at high-end design firms doing national campaigns are far from printing experts. If they care about G7 at all, it's because someone came in and sold them on it.

Don't believe me? The next one that tells you anything about G7, ask them what it even means, and why they want it. I absolutely positively guarantee you and blank look and a stuttering response.

Also, I can tell you that all I do for a living is color workflow management for large and grand format printers, that I've been doing it for over ten years, and that I have literally traveled around the world doing it.

And in all that time, I have never once ever made a device-link profile. And the reason is because they serve no purpose in this industry.

Now, what I can tell you is that if you're really serious about color, you're handicapped a little by the 360, but not for the reasons you list. The reasons are that the machine suffers from some real color inconsistency issues, and also that HP made the decision when they released the machine to make it a "contone-only" printer, which means that a lot of the inking controls that should be available when making profiles for it are not, and you're left with just the pretty rudimentary controls left to you by HP.

Also of note is that the onboard ICC profile-making engine pretty much sucks.

However, given what you've got to work with, and as Pauly said, the way it works in this industry is that if you're going to emulate one machine with another machine, the first thing you need is dead-on accurate profiles of both machines.

We'll assume your Gracol profile is accurate, so then what you need is an accurate profile of your machine in your environment printing on the material you're using.

Not necessarily such an easy thing to make, but once you have it, then you convert your image to the profile of the device you wish to emulate, and you print it to the device profile of the device you're using.

That's how it works. That's how it's done. And that's the only effective way to do it. And the bottom line is that if you do everything correctly, you'll get a match, with two caveats: White point of the media and gamut of the device.

See, in this industry there are no common white points and no ISO standard CMYK values. Also the selection of media are much more vast.

So, all that in mind, here's the gamut of an HP360 run by ONYX Thrive printing on 3M IJ180C; settings were 120 10 pass. It's superimposed over the gamut of Gracol2013. The red is the HP, the green is Gracol. As you can see, the HP doesn't quite cover all the red of the Gracol space, but the difference sure isn't any 12 delta E; it might be two at most. So note also that other than white point, other than that very slight area of red, the HP will cover every bit of Gracol, which means that profiled and set up correctly, you can basically expect out of this machine and on this media a perfect match, with the usual white point exceptions. (My guess is also I'm sure that with full control I could get it out there -- but as the machine is now, that's baked into the cake.)

Bottom line: Forget G7 in large format inkjet printing. It serves no purpose at all.



Mike Adams
Correct Color


360-180-Gracol.jpg
 
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A couple of things here.

You can increase gamut slightly by going to 12pass or higher and 150 to 185 ink density, but you really need to be careful that you do not over ink. Over inking with latex ink will reduce gamut as well. It is a very fine line and you will have to test each media where that line is. Also in discussing the backlit setting specifically the vinyl setting which does allow you to use the onboard calibration I was told not to use it with the backlit vinyl setting. He actually was surprised that it was allowed since as he said the onboard calibration and profiling was not designed for the ink density possible with the backlit setting. Also your RIP definitely needs to be able to limit ink per channel and total ink to be able to make a effective linearization and profile on top of that. It is my understanding that some RIP drivers for the L360 do not allow this. If that is the case how would you effectively deal with the high ink densities allowed in the backlit settings?

I also understand that a new firmware will be released to deal with the problems with the consistency with the lc/lm head. Whether this will again invalidate all calibrations and profiles again will have to be tested when it is released.
 

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