Reliability of a PDF

[kaiserwilhelm]

I guess I am really wanting a response from Leonard here. I will take whatever I get.
I produce straight out of INDD CS4. I use PDF X4A.
I contend (since I am the prepress manager and I have seen it with my own eyes) that type can still reflow from one machine to another.
A consultant to our company is telling us that type cannot reflow (if all fonts are embedded). I have embedded fonts for the past 4 years and I have seen it on screen a few times (PC vs Mac) and via a laser printer numerous times.
(Konica Minolta C551).
What is your experience, and what do the folks at Adobe and or the Ghent group have to say?
Kaiser

[cjwworld]

Originally Posted by kaiserwilhelm

A consultant to our company is telling us that type cannot reflow (if all fonts are embedded).

Well, I am not Leonard but I can tell you that you will have more problems if you DON'T embed all fonts. Just my .02

[claude72]

Originally Posted by kaiserwilhelm

A consultant to our company is telling us that type cannot reflow (if all fonts are embedded).

I'm not Leonard too...

AFAIK, theorically, fonts cannot reflow in a PDF if they are embedded... but:

• first, there is a difference between fonts completely or partially embedded,

• second, PDF are part of computing systems, and computing systems always have bugs...: bugs in the native application, bugs in the fonts used in the doc, bugs in exporting libraries, bugs in .PS creation and in distilling softwares, bugs in Acrobat and Reader...

... and I saw problems with fonts in some PDF:
- euro symbol disappearing,
- missing bold or italic,
- fonts changing,
- PDF looking correct in a office/web Mac, but not correct on my DTP Mac, just because some standard Apple and Microsoft font like Helvetica, Arial or TimeNewRoman are normally installed in the office Mac and are not installed in my DTP Mac...

Most of these problems occured in PDF made with "exotic" non-DTP systems (Word + PDFcreator for example), mainly using Apple and Microsoft default office/web fonts, and not embedding or badly embedding some fonts..., but also occured in exported PDF from InDesign or XPress...


But your consultant is not completely wrong: in a PDF you cannot have important text reflow as in XPress or Indesign, with 1 or 2 words jumping from the end of a line to the beginning of the following line, and 10 words disapearring at the end of the paragraph, showing the red "text reflow indicator" in the bottom right of the block...

... just because in a PDF there is no line of words, nor paragraph, because all lines are fractionnated/broken in many small pieces of text, sometimes with pieces as short as one letter.
So, even if the font is missing and replaced by another font with different a width, all the letters and lines will stay at their places, just having another shape and being too close from each other (and sometimes touching) or with too much space between each other.

[leonardr]

Originally Posted by kaiserwilhelm

I guess I am really wanting a response from Leonard here. I will take whatever I get.

I am Leonard...but others have already done a great job of answering, so I'll just put in a few extra things...

I produce straight out of INDD CS4. I use PDF X4A.
I contend (since I am the prepress manager and I have seen it with my own eyes) that type can still reflow from one machine to another.
A consultant to our company is telling us that type cannot reflow (if all fonts are embedded). I have embedded fonts for the past 4 years and I have seen it on screen a few times (PC vs Mac) and via a laser printer numerous times.
(Konica Minolta C551).
What is your experience, and what do the folks at Adobe and or the Ghent group have to say?
Kaiser

The PDF and PDF/X standards are very clear that if the fonts are embedded in a document, the "conforming reader" (be that something like Acrobat/Reader or your RIP) is REQUIRED to use that font information when rendering the PDF. So from a purists standpoint - if the fonts are embedded, then you will NOT see the text change from the version you produced.

Unfortunately, we don't live in a pure world .

First, as noted, software has bugs. We've had discussions in this forum about how things vary between versions of Acrobat/Reader when we've fixed bugs (or, oh no, introduced them). It happens, it's unfortunate, and we deal with them as quickly as we can - and hpefully provide you (the user) with workarounds. Of course, don't forget the RIP too - they have bugs as well but don't always update as quickly AND many users don't even bother to upgrade/update their RIPs.

Second, is simply following the rules! Adobe's PDF solutions (be it Acrobat/Reader, our Postscript and PDF RIPs, etc.) all follow the rules set forth by the various standards - and especially in this case, concerning the fonts. Is that true for your RIP? I don't know - I don't know if it's from Adobe or another company?

Finally, many workflows involve other tools in the process from production to print. They are used for "correction" as well as layout and imposition. Do the tools involved follow the rules? Adobe's do, many of the others do - but some do not! I know of at least two major, well known, vendors of prepress/production tools who products will cause HUGE amounts of damage to PDF fonts . So this too is an area where one needs to ensure use of proper, standards-supporting, solutions.

Hope that all helps...

Leonard

[Ritter]

I think we are looking at the problem from the wrong angle. I've seen different operating systems and different RIPs (and therefore output devices) produce completely different results from the same fonts. We live in a world of constantly changing software but the main variable/problem here is fonts not the PDF. This problem will continue to exist into the future as far out as I can see. Opentype, TrueType, Postscript, etc. etc. are supported by various operating systems, various RIPs and come with various license restrictions. We in the prepress world currently have to contend with files created with at a minimum from the following operating system combinations OS X, 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 10.4, x.5, 9.1, 9, 8.6, 8; Windows XP, 2000, NT, ME, 98 (to include various service pack versions of each). Each supports different types of fonts, some cross compatible, others not. Further legacy support varies even more (at least once every other month I have an Apple user trying to send bitmap fonts). Take into consideration RIP technology and drivers and protocols for network and attached printers and you've got a variable cluster***. The move towards OpenType was a HUGE shift forward and gives some hope that things will get better. We will continue to deal with these issues on a day to day basis until standardization sets in and legacy support for these old formats dies out. One thing that could definitely speed up this progress would be to <ducking under desk from typophiles> drastically lower the price of these large font packages </duck> in order to proliferate them to the masses. The bad news is we have to support legacy files and reflow among other problems is going to be the result sometimes. The good news is that the vendors (albeit very slowly and grudgingly) are working towards the same goal of standardization.

A few things that can clear up this headache...
Adobe, Apple, Microsoft, Quark, etc. PDF export/distill presets can have the absolutely useless function of "never embed" or "don't embed" removed and if a font won't embed due to licensing have an error message and refuse to produce a PDF. A PDF without embedded fonts is virtually worthless for web, e-mail, document storage (how many years until that font cannot be found at all), and especially print.

[T]

I just outline fonts before the PDF gets written.

[Ritter]

Originally Posted by T

I just outline fonts before the PDF gets written.

I've tried going that route to the point of having trap and flattening problems, the text appearing too bold or not bold enough not to mention the extended amount of time it takes to RIP. It works when you have to shove something through but it isn't a very reliable technique to use on every job. I have also have had crazy customers who outline everything before they submit it to me (increasing the file size of their documents, sometimes un-viewable on screen because of draw time) and then ask me to make some minor text revision.

[claude72]

Originally Posted by Ritter

I have also have had crazy customers who outline everything before they submit it to me (increasing the file size of their documents, sometimes un-viewable on screen because of draw time)

Many people using this softwares had no real formation, and only "work" grabbing informations from every sources they can find... and outlining the fonts is a common demand from some printers...

... or WAS a common demand of printers when they asked for EPS files 10 years ago... now, with the PDF and embedded fonts, the need of outlining is (almost) finished, but the "urban legend" of outlining-fonts-for-a-safe-job still goes its way )

[Lukas Engqvist]

Amazed that you have used PDFx4a for 4 years ;p I know of PDF-x4 and PDFx4p
I have seen text "reflows" as in fonts loosing their tracking from MS documents and the bugg/feature that means that you need to export to PDF-x4 from CS4.
Hope you are not thinking that x4 means for Acrobat 4, because that is not what PDF-X is about. There are screen issues with PDFs whith some viewers and PDF makers, but have found the PDFx4 very stable, if your RIP can handle it. The one scenario that I have seen that has not worked however is when a PDFx1a from CS4 has the font bug/feature it does not help to convert that file to a PDFx4.

Kaiserwilliam if you want to make a better world you will have to be more specific with your observations. What files? where were they from? how were they different? What made the one file work and the other not? Save the file in a folder if you can't debugg yourself. Give the file to all developers that were involved. Was it the software, the font the driver, the configuration, the printer....

remember reading excerpts from a fighter plane logg: the pilot had entered "something broken in cockpit" the technician had logged "something fixed in cockpit". I hope you understand the analogy. I have seen with my own eyes some very incompetent technicians ;p
One problem with troubble shooting is that people give up before they nail down the problem, so we get all these roumours of instability, where we find piles of corpses where the messengers have been shot ;p

[kyle]

As far as I know, it wouldn't be possible for type to "reflow" in any PDF the same way it does with more editable document formats (words moving from one line or page to another and hyphenation changing). Each text line is always an independent object and there is no concept of a text frame or linking. A line of text begins at a given coordinate and its length is determined by the interpretation of the font. The characters can change from one font to another, or one glyph to another, and their position in the text line and scaling can change, but it would be as difficult for it to actually reflow as it would be for lead type.