Spot color conversion Indesign vs Acrobat Pro

[kseldridge1]

We use a workflow for digital printing that includes exporting a pdf from Indesign(CS3,4,5). For color management, we convert to destination using the device profile. This converts everything including spot colors but it retains the spot channel in the output pdf. This all great. I am trying to set up an Acrobat preflight droplet workflow which includes convert to color. I can not find the setting to emulate how Indesign outputs and converts. I can convert spot color to destination but it does not retain them as spot colors. It all goes cmyk. Somehow Indesign can convert spot color to destination value but keep spot channel and Acrobat pro convert to color can not keep spot channel after conversion. Does this seem right?

[Stephen Marsh]

I can't reproduce this behaviour.

Both InDesign 5 and Acrobat Pro 9 keep the spot colour as a spot colour or they convert it to a process and remove the spot.


Stephen Marsh

[kseldridge1]

That is not what is happening here and why I ask the question. If in Indesign CS3,4,5, you place a cmyk image and create a spot to go with it, Export PDF and change the 'output' color settings to 'convert to destination', pick a printer profile, and do not embed profile, you will get a pdf where the image AND the retained spot have converted colors. This is not the same result I get using Acrobat Pro 9,X 'Convert colors' fixup in a preflight profile. Nothing I do will hold the spot color after converting to destination. I must be missing something. We are installing a device that prints a spot white. I need to be able to convert everything and hold spots without having to do it in swatches pallet on every document.

[Stephen Marsh]

I need to be able to convert everything and hold spots without having to do it in swatches pallet on every document.

Ah, now I see! I was using the InDesign and Acrobat feature that converts All Spots to Process.

We have a WT7900, being driven by Kodak Proofing Software for Matchprint Inkjet (v5.2). This has an optional selective map to process feature that one can use on individual seps, rather than using the all spots to process function. One could choose to manually map all spots to process except the white ink (or not to convert any spots to process).

So, with this in mind - does your RIP have a selective spot to process mapping feature?

Off hand, I am not sure about performing selective mapping to process in Adobe software when exporting a CMYK + spot colour PDF from InDesign or when converting colours in Acrobat Pro 9. The InDesign swatches obviously have this ability for vector objects, however it would appear that you are after a method in Acrobat...


Stephen Marsh

[kseldridge1]

The files will go through ONYX for a digital printer and i do have the ability to use the spot color table. ONYX would need a media profile to map spot color to a table but we keep that RIP configured in a basic mode so the operators do not have to be concerned with the right choices when ripping but also we do not set profiles in the RIP because I find i get the most 'expected' results if i let Adobe do the conversions. Even spots come out like what you see on screen, for the most part. WYSIWYG. If we have a critical customer we dial the spot in nice and close to swatch or something. We create a color converted file for each media on each device out of Indesign. Great way to keep color consistent no matter what you print on. Just need a good media profile. I do not like multiple RIPs doing color conversions.

So anyway. I wonder if there is a disconnect between apps or if missed a setting. I want to convert colors including spot to a media profile but retain spot color plates. I will keep searching.

[Al Ferrari]

" We are installing a device that prints a spot white."

Have you contacted the device manufacturer about the problem? I would start there.

Al

[Correct Color]

The device manufacturer will send him right to Onyx, guaranteed.

I'm a little lost here, however. In just what "basic mode" are you running Onyx?

Also, where do you get the media profiles you're using?


Mike Adams
Correct Color

[kseldridge1]

We use Profile maker to make the media profiles. These play nice in Adobe for softproofing (the profiles made with ONYX would not soft proof in Adobe). 'Basic mode' Im calling it is... Onyx is set not to color manage. Users open color converted pdf's and print All Profiles Off.

[Correct Color]

Well...while that does work, I can tell you I've implemented hundreds of Onyx workflows and I have never, ever set one up that way.

It's just a much more cumbersome workflow. (You've got at least duplicate sets of files you've got to contend with for however long you keep them, for instance.) Also depending on creation color spaces, there's a real issue with converting spot colors (other than white) into the final machine space in Adobe products that you're setting yourself up for by doing it this way.

As far as making ICC profiles goes--and I'm assuming you actually know there's a difference in Onyx terminology between a media profile and an ICC profile--you can drop any third party ICC profile into an Onyx media profile. (You're right that Onyx ICC profiles are a nuisance to get to be able to use to soft proof--although it can be done--not to mention that the Onyx ICC profile-making engine is a little short of being the best one out there.)

Once that's done, you can soft proof through that profile just as you're doing now.

Beyond that, in order to print a spot color in Onyx, you do have to be using a media profile that has a spot color defined, and that spot color has to match the defined spot color in the file. You can, however, do this with "All Profiles Off" you just have to select the proper media. (By the way, although this 'can' be done, I strongly recommend to all my clients that they never do it.)

Note too that for the most part at this time, most of the printers who are using white have their own workflows and their own techniques. For that reason, they're typically generating the white printer--spot in particular--themselves, in Photoshop or Illustrator. And since they're creating this step in house from large-format friendly applications, there isn't a lot of reason to bother with a pdf.

Of course, what you're describing sounds like a flood fill white, and if that's the case, you don't even need to create it in the file. You can create the condition in Onyx and then create a Quickset for that condition.

Finally, unless this is a t-shirt machine I'll assume this is large format you're working with, and I'll just toss in that if it is, you might want to consider some other originating application than Indesign.

What I'm suggesting is that it might be a good time to examine your overall workflow, rather than just looking for a solution in Acrobat.


Mike Adams
Correct Color

[kseldridge1]

First we are dealing with Fuji Acuity's here. If you are not familiar with the device it is an OEM of the Oce GT250,350. The are UV flatbed printers. The lights they use to cure lose power over time. If you want consistant color over a months time you need to recalibrate often. I have found that the recalibration tool in Onyx does not get it done as well as simply creating a new profile. Yes I know all about ink restrictions and linearizations, but if you know the device, you would have to go all the way through a media setup to accomodate the light power. We can get away with a universal media for paper or plastics or whatever. Since we do that I do not what to manage profile for every media when they are changing so often. We make profile right into an aliased colorsync folder and they are available to all adobe apps for output or proofing. If you ask me it is a great workflow that each prepress person can use and manage from any mac.

Second, We have used Onyx since version6. I know and have explored all of the scenario's you talk about. All of them using Onyx color tools, have left me hanging and scratching my head why it doesn't match a known good proof. Also handling transparencies is terrible in Onyx. Adobe already has the transparency figured out and can convert and output correctly. The last thing I need is an operator at night pulling up a job and having color or transparency problems. It wasn't until I let Adobe do the conversion that I got very good 'visual matches' and reliable transparency handling. I know as far as file creation, it is not ideal, we have to convert for each device and media, but the result are outstanding. That is why I want an automator/Acrobat preflight Droplet hotfolder to do conversions on all three devices from one file drop.

Third, like other things, everyone has a workflow. Some are better than others for different reasons. But my workflow is not the question. The question is..

Why is a color conversion out of Adobe Indesign vs. Acrobat different when it comes to spot colors. Indesign converts color and holds the spot in the pdf where as Acrobat converts spot color but does not retain the spot color in pdf.