Quote:
Originally Posted by printprofessional
I am a Jetplate 7600 user and I was directed by Jetplate before they belly-upped to go to Dotworks for plates. They have a new machine that doesn't even show up in their website called the Tango. It uses the Epson just like Glunz and Jensen but instead of a conveyer belt with a gum fluid it has an oven and no liquids. They are touting this as superior to G&J but the main advantage I can see is the machine only uses one channel for the marker fluid and the others use the standard Epson ink. This allows the machine to be used as a proofer. The disadvantages are that you cannot shift heads when they go bad. The advantage is that you don't need maintenance fluid which gets expensive. Every time I have to change the maintenance fluids and marker fluid in all the channels in the 7600 it's about $1000.
Anyone know anything about this machine?
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Hi Print Professional,
Incase my title does not appear in the panel to the left, I work for G&J and can provide many insights to the different inkjet CTP solutions on the market. Please bear in mind, considering I work for G&J my input should be considered biased, however I try to remain open and objective.
The G&J systems, use a special ink, it does not dry in the head, hence the need for an inkdryer system on the printer... but that was to prevent our dealer techs from needing to visit site or customer to suffer issues... G&J has a reputation for high end products that are reliable ... so you are unlikely EVER to need to change channels. We have never lost a head in the last 2 years in our second generation PW2000, or PW2400 series machines, nor found the need to change channels. We DO warranty the printhead... and you may have seen some of the promotions we run from time to time with a free 2 year warranty.
The Dot works system is different to both G&J and Jetplate. It is the reminants of an Italian system called Digital Mind that went belly up last year in Europe. It uses a similar principle to the G&J system, a non-photosensitive plate, with a top coat to accept the Tango Ink, but uses a lesser know RIP and sturggles with tonal reproduction and smooth Vinettes.... relability is on par with Jetplate we consider the quality below that Jetplate. You are right, it heats the plate in a draw beneath the unit, and you don't get autoamtic gumming, true... but you still need to gum the plate!
The G&J system,uses an integrated Finishing unit, that heats then automatically gums the plate for you, but if you were that way inclinded you can remove the gum... (and then do it by hand
) , like with the Tango).
The DOT Works system - uses propriatory plates not widely available unlike the G&J ones now, G&J's plate is now manufactured at 3 facilities and G&J make over a 1/4 million sq ft + every month... this is now a common high quality plate for the small commercial printer. The Dot works, Tango plate are (as I understand, and at least were a few months ago..) hand finished with a coating after production and so are not as consistant as other inkjet based CTP solutions, and this inconsistancy along with the Jetplate style reliability were the main contributing factors of the downfall of Digital Mind in Italy.
I am aware of one 2 Tango systems installed in the US at this point, and I have not heard any negative feedback from these todate (Trying to remain objective ;o) )
To my knowledge there are now a few inkjet CTP solutions,
JetPlate -(Formally Pisces) who have gone bust. Uses Chemicals and a Negative working plate that is lightsensitive. Image is wet after imaging and can easiliby damaged, requires developing chemistries but on a good processor will produce a resaonable run length. Main disadvatages, other than the wet image, and chemistry .. is the known frequet printhead failures caused by Cyrstalisation of the ink in the channels, causing users to switch heads. RIP produces a low quality Stocastic raster with spaces between solids and tints in highlights, plus stepping in gradients and a grainy look. Often promoted with Conventional screening, although this tends to band. - Generally considered the first Inkjet CTP solution for the small printer.
G&J - Who sought to aquire Pices 6 years ago, then backed away deciding reliability would not fit thier market status. Instead, hired a few of the main staff, and re-engineered the product eliminating the issues as they saw. First generation product launched 2005, Second generation product 2007 which saw a switch to a Engineering partnership with Epson, including custom firmware and additional controls for a fully fledged solution... with Epson approval.
G&J system, uses a conventionally grained plate made under license for Glunz & Jensen, the plate is protected from oxidation (humidity & the elements), with a top coat during the manufacture (this makes it unique), it is tuned to the G&J ink. All G&J plates are are mass produced now through multiple manufacturers globally (the volume has grown due to the fact the installed base is above 550 systems in last 2.5 years, 300+ in last 18 months).
The G&J system does use a custom ink, but are unique in that they warranty the printheasd along with the machine. The reason they can do this, is they set out to make this a platemaker NOT a jack of all trades.
Plates are registered in the machine with an automatic optical registration system adpated by Epson for G&J. The ink used by G&J is very wet, so never clogs the head. In addition the non imaging channels contain a cleaning fluid that keeps all pertinent parts in the printer free of ink build up, MORE SO than a conventional epson proofing printer. The ink is dried during imaging with a climate controled ink dryer assembly mounted ontop of the unit, so G&J systems can work in Cold to Warm regions throughout the world ( G&J are a Global multi-national organisation). Image on plate is dry once imaged AND plate can immediately be placed on press (No other inkjet CTP system can do this !). HOWEVER, the G&J system includes an integrated Finishing unit mounted under the main imaging unit, this heats, and cures the plates, then automatically gums them. This hardens the image, and creates and extremely strong press chemical resistance, so plates are good for MINIMUM 50,000 impression (best run to date is out of a printer in Washignton area at 300,000 impressions).
Supplied with a non resolution restricted full blown Harlequin RIP with advanced screening designed for Inkjet PlateMaking from the ground UP and to compensate for press dot gain, smooth gradients, and Capable of a full 256 grey level sweep along with high end spot or full colour (CMYK) results. Inadition capable and suppied with the same Conventional screening as Jetplate (but never advertised, as G&J do not beleive it is good enough for thier users).
A Print 09 G&J moved up to the MKII of the second generation machines, improving quality and speed further to ensure they stayed ahead of the baying pack following.
Tango - (Previously Digital Mind). New to the US market after the demise of the predecessor in Italy. Basically a similar approach to the G&J system. However, the non imaging channels contain normal Epson proofing ink not cleaning fluid... initially touted to enable uses to use it for platemaking and proofing (Jack of all trades). But, the special Plate marking fluid and Generic Epson ink are not fully comaptible so consistancy issues and relability dogged previous Italian supplier - In addition the 8 channels of fluid containing solids caused other related issues. With only 45 system instaleld worldwide before DigitalMinds demise, and now it is beleived installed base is limited to US, with 2 such installs - Plate production is hand done, and top coat applied which has in the past shown to be inconsistent.
Image is wet after imaging, and plate is then placed in an oven for 5 mons to cure image. Plates must then be hand gummed to prevent the onset of oxidation, (applicable to any metal plate).. by hand.
Rip is a Wastach Poster printing and screen printing RIP, producing a proofing sytle stocastic screen, which struggles with coping with Litho Press dot gain even with Wasatch's advanced calibration, as gain is up near 60-70% at high resolutions, this results in non smooth gradients and grainy images.
VIM - New to the market, first shown at DRUPA 2008. But then with a totally different non grained plate.
Uses a normal Epson printer, a RIP and a laminating unit to cure the plates. Only 5 installs in US so far (at time of writing). An attractive proposition to users, untill they have tried the plates. At risk of giving Inkjet CTP a bad name. 2 solutions available. Hardware bundle comes in at $10,000 and You get the printer, RIP and a laminator to cure the plate. Initial feedback, shows - Polyester version of plate okay, wth runs upto 1,500 - 3,000 impressions. BUT, plate uses Epson ink which is GlycoEtherbased, and completely soluable in just about ANY press chemistry.. so stop the press, sneeze and you need a new plate... Plate cleaner ..forget it.
Metal Plate - under legal issues with PressTek, who has won 2 court cases for infringment of Patents... But tests show plate will not cure well, and can not withstand press chemistry, dots fall off at circa 1,500 -2000 impressions. Line work may hold to more on a good day with wind behind you.
Verdict, likely to rouse a lot of interest, but could put many off inkjet CTP by being the best exampke of how not to do it. (Metal Plates very expensive - even considering use of normal EPson ink.. costs more to run than any of the other systems)... Romour has it, they are seeking to abandon Epson ink approach due to run length issues and adopt similar appraoch to G&J and Tango, which will also drive price up.
Hope this gives some insight.
Best wishes,
M
Tango By Dotworks-Should G & J be concerned?
G&J are not worried
Linear Mode
