My printing business is about 10% of my business (I'm diversified). I cannot justify a $25000 purchase right now because that part of my business is so far off from year ago sales. I am grateful that there is a way for me to use my existing rip to keep making plates while conserving cash for important things-like vacations.
Hi - I have recently joined the Forum. I must state from the start that I work for TechNova Imaging Systems so I have a bias.
We have an imaging system called PoliJet that can image polyester plates and film.
The cost of a new system with Rip, Epson printer and Fuser begins at under $15,000.
Don't be deceived by the price. The rip is highly detailed with full control of ink density, linearisation, dot gain, dot shape etc.
TechNova is one of the top four plate manufacturers in the world with years of experience on polyester plates. The PoliJet sytem was demonstrated very successfully at Drupa 2008 both on Epson's stand and live on a GTO press on our own stand.
The PoliJet plates will achieve 1000 impressions unfused and 10,000 impressions when fused.
The PosiJet ID film attains a Dmax of 3.1 at 2880x2880 resolution.
The plates work best using Epson's Vivid Magenta K3 inks, the film with the Photo Black.
What is amazing is the fact that you can still use the printer for photos and posters and the Epson warranty is unaffected. The end user is not tied to expensive specialist fluids.
When the printer itself is replaced the system works with each new series of Epson printers. TechNova is an Epson approved Partner.
The PoliJet system began with the SP4000 printer has moved through the 4400, x600, x800 and is currently utilising the 4880, 7880, 9880, 7900 and 9900 printers.
As environmental issues push forward I believe inkjet ctp will continue to emerge as a dominant plate technology. I have been following this technology for more than 12 years dating back to Graphic Science Corporation when they did a demo using laser inkjet film positives & positive acting metal plates to run a CMYK job at a trade show. Inkjet entered the picture with Pisces (JetPlate) which is now gone out of business. I have spoken to many users of JetPlate systems who were very happy with the system. Then Glunz-Jensen iCTP came about, then TechNova's Polijet and MetiJet, then VIM Technologies JT-Direct Plates (polyester & metal), Dotworks, and the newest is Kimoto's Kimotosetter 525 which uses UV inkjet technology to image the plates.
I don't work for any of these companies, and I am not a dealer. I do own my own print shop, been in the business for 20+ years, and buy and sell used equipment, so I have talked to lots of printer, dealers, engineers, manufacturers, etc. What I will tell you is I believe the technology is here to stay, and that I believe all the systems are capable of making quality plates, each system having its pluses and minuses.
The Glunz-Jensen and Kimoto 525 are on the high end price wise at around $30K each. The Dotworks, Polijet, and JT-Direct are all very similar but these 3 all use off the shelf high end Epson Stylus Pro series inkjet printers using OEM inks to image the plates. Each brand of plate material will obviously have different characteristics but I believe they will all perform relatively the same from the tests I have done in my own shop.
What G/J doesn't want you to know is that you can buy the Epson 3880 for around $1295 new, buy a rip from $495, buy the plate material from stuff4print.com and use a laminator to cure the plates. I haven't tested the $495 rip but I am told it does the job well, but the Wasatch SP RIP has all the tools you need to make very high quality inkjet plates.
I'm not sold on the MetiJet plates yet as to my understanding the plates have to be exposed on a plate burner once imaged (positive acting plates - the ink block the light) & then developed so this isn't much different than imaging film and burning plates anyway as you still have the same steps.
The purpose of CTP is to lower plates cost, production time and obtain a higher quality plate. All the above fit this concept except the MetiJet in my opinion, and if you look at the imaging specs they all use the same Epson imaging head/resolution of 2880 x 1440 dpi (including G/J and Jetplate). So in theory they are all capable of putting down the same image on the plate. Any difference would come down to the plate characteristics and the RIP capability. Wasatch definitely has the high end covered on the RIP. The polyester plates are available in several thicknesses, & by going thicker with the plates stretch is not an issue. Registration is perfect also with the Epson printers.
My tests have shown excellent results for an investment of less than $100 with my used Epson 7600 Ultrachrome printer I picked up. Same imaging head resolution and Ultrachrome Pigment Inks (just not the K3 version). Technova specs on their website polijet.com states it is 4 color capable and runs of 10K or more. Most small to medium printers now average run is within that range.
Basically to sum it up, if you have a wide format printer that uses pigment ink (not dye ink versions) get you some sample plates from each manufacturer, download a RIP demo and test each manufacturers plates and form your own opinions. If you don't have a baking unit or laminator let the plates sit for 24-48 for testing purposes to let the plates dry thoroughly before doing your test runs. If your happy with the results then invest in the RIP and laminator or baking unit. Baking the plates is key with the pigment inks to make the system work.
Hope this give you some unbiased insight to inkjet CTP...
G&J Doesn't quite concur with you Discount Printing
Hi Discount printing,
It seems like you have been doing a little experimenting of your own, and I don't challenge your findings, although the conclusions you draw I think we would not quite agree with.
I would like to correct a detail on the G&J system, its only a little thing but important to us.
The G&J version uses customised firmware from Epson and runs at 2880x 2880. While the normal Epson 4xxx series run at the 1440 x 2880 you mention. (while this is partially possible through some high end RIPS the advantage of the Epson Firmware implementation enables 2 channel interwoven printing for significantly improved printing speeds.. dropping a normal 2880 dpi print from 30 mins to 8.5mins.
Other than that...
We would not completely agree that "Baking the plate is key".... it is a combination of many factors, the RIP controlling the image quality onto the substrate (the plate), the plate its self.. how the dot reacts when the two interact... (some dots spread like ink on blotting paper with some systems).. and the practical use-ability of the finished result... not just the ability to acehive a number of impressions, but how practical is ti to use, and the resilance to press chemistry in day to day operation...
The G&J system uses Metal Plates not polyester plates, and our findings show there is not a credible way to get conventional water based Epson Pigmented inks to bind to the plate for either a reasonable run length nor any type of resistantance to press chemistry. In some circumstances handled with kid gloves you might get a few 100 impressions employing the approach you describe, but we do not consider it in any way a viable way to run your printing business..
However, if you are reffering more to polyester inkjetCTP substrates (which I think you are?) I would say - use of the polyester based substrates do work much better like you indicate.
We see such substrates allow the ink to penetrate and the run length is improved.
However, the substrates are difficult to register when printing and close register work is therefore challenging both from the ability to consistantly load material acurately and from the natural movement you get with polyester substrates anyway. In addition we see their ability to work with conventional press chemistries to be significantly challenged, again making it less practical for a day to day solution... but reasonable for a "Get me out of trouble" solution.
I concur that for some users this would be an acceptable every day solution... But, again.. G&J does not consider this level of quality acceptable to run your business upon.
Last edited by iCtP; 12-18-2009 at 06:09 AM.
Reason: typo corrections
I am to say the least a little concerned about the amount of mis-information regarding iCtP.
Firstly MetiJet is actually two different products and the general statements on the forums are misleading. There is a PS version that requires processing but also a chemistry free version. Both of these were demonstrated at Drupa as concept projects but have not been released for general sale as yet.
On Tuesday of last week I printed a 4 colour process job on a GTO 52 with standard alcohol damping using PoliJet (polyester) plates imaged in 22 minutes (total for the four plates) and then fused. The register was good, within 0.3mm on the 420mm width of the A3 sheet. Where these plates score is the cost to the end user, nearly half the physical cost of metal plates to image. We do not sell our PoliJet system as 4 colour capable, it is aimed at the general jobbing market for runs of up to 10,000 impressions. It is the PosiJet (iCtfilm system) that is used for process sets with analogue plates.
If you need mainly 4 colour plates to run 5,000+ impressions the G&J system should be recommended. If you are looking to run general jobbing work with the possibility of the odd short-run process job the PoliJet system is up to the task and way cheaper to use.
The reported image degradation issues are ever seen with PoliJet when press minders use non-compatable chemistry with inkjet plates, TechNova's customers do not suffer this issue. TechNova has a range of inkjet plate chemistry that work extremely well with polyester and also with metal plates.
Printers
The 7600 printer uses plain Ultrachrome inks which dramatically shorten the run length of the polyester plates. Added to that is a much inferior dot to that produced using the x880 series of printers.
The 7900 and 9900 printers are almost twice as fast imaging plates as the x880 series and produce the sharpest dot I have seen so far.
The other aspect of TechNova's PoliJet system is the easy and relatively cheap upgrade options. Anybody with the PoliJet system can upgrade from an x800 or x880 to the x900 for the cost of a new printer.
Finally I have tested with some $495 rips, although not the Wasach as yet. My findings so far were that these were great for screen printing use, but did not have the level of control of the ink density required to make iCtP Litho plates with the levels of accuracy needed.
Hi everyone, Happy Holidays
I was going through Jet-plate / Glunz and Jensen Platesetter discussion and noticed that Mr. iCtP mentioned something about conversion kit. I have Jetplate 4800 series system that I can say is in terrific condition but could never use it as Craftsman plates were way too expencive and with Jet-plate going out of business - there was no point to even get started. If there is a conversion exist, can you, please, provide me with some info where I should turn to get one. I am in Brooklyn, NY. Thank you.
I had called Glunz and Jensen, USA and they said that there is no such thing as upgrade kit for Jet-Plate, rep was really nice and friendly and super politically correct, sounded like he is allergic to word "Jet-Plate"
I had called Glunz and Jensen, USA and they said that there is no such thing as upgrade kit for Jet-Plate, rep was really nice and friendly and super politically correct, sounded like he is allergic to word "Jet-Plate"
I have replied to this here, as it seems the appropiate place for it.
Summary for those not wanting to search for it.
Glunz & Jensen do not supply conversion kits for Jetplate systems. We are concerned about how we would support systems that we have no background on. Our reputation for reliable products that carry our name is important to us.
Having said that, we manufacture and supply equipment for a number of companies such as Heidelberg, Agfa, Fuji etc.. OEM manufacture is our business and in December, we started to supply third party companies, who know more about the Jetplate system, with the necessary items to adapt the engine in to a "I want to use G&J Plates and Fluids"..
But, this in no way will deliver G&J quality, or robustness. It will however, enable Jetplate users to move away from Chemical based processing, and deliver an equivalent quality to what they acheived previously.
Adaption requires:-
Flush out fluids to remove existing JetPlate inks.
Flush to stablise system, and remove traces of flush used to removed Jetplate fluids (so 2 flushes)
Liquid Dot - Imaging Fluids
Maintenance Fluid for - self cleaning channels.
Updated Firmware to adapt Epson Engine
InkDryer to fit on exisiting printer engine
Control box to control ink dryer.
We have seen street pricing for this, and it may well appeal to may JetPlate users.
It is NOT supported by Glunz & Jensen, as our system DOES require the plates to be cured after imaging, and we are not aware how this is being acheived. In addition, our RIP has some specific controls for sharpening text, and for controling gradients without stepping or tonal compression, for tearing around text and line art over tints and for smoothing and evening dot distribution to look more conventional in halftones to avoid the traditional "old" stocastic screeninging look people are not keen on...plus there are controls in our RIP for controling the ink weight.. none of these are available within the current JetPlate RIP.
I am not sure we are allergic to the word JetPlate, having said that..we have spent 5 years ensuring our systems are reliable and do not damage printheads, to the point we have a development partnership with Epson. No other system, is that robust, nor carries that weigth behind it... yes we are a little more than some others... but we see that as reassuringly so...yet the difference in reliability, support and backup from less capable suppliers of alternative systems has, in the past ... simply because of the connection in the terms of the word "Inkjet"... this lack of service from other vendors has also reflected negatively upon us.... so we tend to react the same way if it is Tango, Jetplate, Pisces or Vim..
So considering this, and going back to "Do G&J offer an upgrade/conversion, or support such a thing?"...well...for us there are too many unkowns and areas we consider as being out of our control for us to be able to support it...there is an unknown impact from the engine being upgraded..of running the Jetplate fluid in the system for a period of time (which has a documented effect, within this forum)..which means we have no control over the final output for users that employ a conversion kit. As such, we can not sell the upgrade nor support it... there gentleman you spoke to was quite correct.
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