Buying a Minolta 6500 - what should I ask?

[PrintKidStuff]

Hi,

Can you help me ask the right questions when purchasing my printer?

I currenlty use a Xerox 7655 which is breaking down during our peak season as we are running it overcapacity. We are reasonably content with the quality for our colour prints as we print-on-demand our in-house children's books (kids aren't super picky). Speed is not a huge issue for us. We plan to run an average of 30k per month, with peaks of 100k in november and december. 90% of our prints are colour on paper 100 to 180 GSM 12x18 duplexed. We tend to use less expensive non brand name paper.

I just need to increase my capacity. Price is a HUGE factor for me.

I've met my local Minolta, Xerox and Canon dealers. Due to the very attractive price, I am looking at a Minolta 6500 Demo.

I know that 6500s historically had colour issues. Are these issues really really bad? Is it bad even for vectorial drawings: we print illustrations, not pictures.

I'm going toe ask for a trial period and a complete history of the machine but I fear I won't see any issues until I hit my peaks.

What kind of guarantees can I reasonably ask for?

I plan on asking the following:

How many prints on the machine?
Who owned it?
Why is it for sale?
May I speak to them?

What else should I ask?

Thanks for all your help.

[fathershrubb]

We too bought a demo model. Unfortunately we have been duped with a bait and switch from Konica Minolta . All the sales analysis and proposals say color .069 per color image and when we signed the contract they say that the click price is for 8.5 x 11. Not happy. Make sure the machine is not couting two clicks for anything over 8.5x11. Get it in writing . . . and then again. Let me know how it turns out.

[PrintKidStuff]

Yeah. I had seen your previous post about this. I definetly noted that I needed to check that. I feel much more comfortable about my negotiating now that I see where others have had issues. I appreciate it.

Thanks,

[PineyBob]

I can't stand dealers that do the 2 clicks for 11 x 17 and don't disclose it.

BEFORE you sign anything with a dealer make sure you ask this question and get it in writing or walk away from the table and the deal and IMO DON'T come back no matter what they offer. Buy elsewhere because when people show you who they are believe them. The money saved in doing a deal with a deceptive dealer will be offset by the 36 months of aggravation you'll have getting them to honor the contract. Also make sure you are aware of any escalators in the service contact. Some automatically increase5 to 15 percent every 12 months. There are some dealers who will quote and honor a figure so low you have to (in your mind) take the deal only to find out later in the fine print that they reserve the right to raise you click charge AT ANYTIME! I've seen printers get dinged on the 61st day after the D & A was signed and the deal funded to the dealer. There is still a whole lot of sleaze in the copier biz

[PrintKidStuff]

The Xerox guys are back in the picture with a DC 260 Demo printer. They suddenly found me a good deal for that one. The Minolta guy has agreed to put the right things in writing. But thanks for the warning, I'll make sure it is detailed in the contract.

The deals seems pretty close to me. Any opinions on which printer would be best for me KM 6500 or DC 260? Any other advice?

Thanks alot guys, I really appreciate the advice. I feel like crap because when I purchased the first one, 2.5 years ago, I hardly negotiated at all. I was completely taken by these printer people. Now I'm trying to make up for my lack of experience.

[Craig]

I was completely taken by these printer people. Now I'm trying to make up for my lack of experience.

Don't trash printer people like that! I would hardly call copier sales a noble profession. With the exception of a few the majority could go back to selling cars or insurance at any time.

[X33]

Any opinions on which printer would be best for me KM 6500 or DC 260? Any other advice?

you come back to the basics :
- Service and Support
- Who holds the financing paperwork
- Color quality, consistency
- Upgrade path
- And of course, pricing, lease+clicks

[PineyBob]

Don't trash printer people like that! I would hardly call copier sales a noble profession. With the exception of a few the majority could go back to selling cars or insurance at any time.

Actually most copier sales folks COULDN'T sell cars or insurance as there is far more oversight in those industries then you might imagine. Professional Sales people exist in every industry as do less then professional people. The Manufacturer/Dealer relationship is what really fosters the sleaze as it is often a sleaze born of desparation.

End of quarter just passed and we are now in the 31st day of your friendly local dealer being loaded up with a warehouse briming with inventory sold in so the District Sales Manager for the Manufacturer can get his bonus. That DSM needs to help "sell thru" that inventory so he can load up the warehouse again in late September. This metality forces dealers to lower their ethical standards in many cases for a very good reason, they need to meet payroll.

There is a saying, "At the beginning of the month we're consultants, at the end of the month we move boxes." Manufacturers talk the talk when it come to being consultive, but at the end of the day the accountants in Japan call the US and say "How many you sell". The "box" mentality is the single biggest obstacle the industry faces and despite protest, training and slick marketing in the end the manufacturers are no better at walking the walk consultive selling wise then the sleaziest scumbag dealer in the USA

One of the only reasons IMO that Xerox still exists is that they are the only company that approaches the market differently. Every other Manufacturer builds product and hires people to sell it, Canon being a classic example of an engineering company that markets well. This is true to varying extents at all the Japanese companies & Oce. Xerox OTOH is a Marketing Company that hires very talented engineers and says to them "can you build a product that will do this, this and this" and pretty soon such a device or software appears on the market that meets or exceeds market expectations. To me it's a subtle but profoundly different approach. It allows them to position themselves as consultants far easier. It allows their reps to build relationships and rapport and any "Copier guy" who has ever tried to penetrate a "Xerox Shop" knowns that it's an uphill battle all the way even when you hold a significant price advantage.

Why? Trust, Credibility and the relationship built. The old time Xerox guys I worked with are the most professional salespeople I've ever met in an industry that screams for professionalism. Printers are very good at making words on a page look nice. However when it comes to their use in negotiations they often find themselves at a disadvantage. When I was Print for Pay specialist I would get asked "Can I get out of this lease?" Now think about how you "get out" of a car lease? Well there is the answer you pay all of the payments is how you "get out" of the lease. So is it sleazy if the salesperson gives the correct abswer of "YES" to the original question? If I'm a commissioned sales rep I'm going to answer your question in a way that will allow me to advance the sale, without lying to you. By answering "YES" I answered the question truthfully as if you look up the definition of can you'll find it means "Am I able to". So in the example the salesman answered honestly.

If you ask bad questions, don't be surprised if you get bamboozled. If you don't ask me about the escalators in the service contract do you really think I'm going to volunteer the information? If you don't understand the 30, 60, 90 day written notice of your intention to return the equipment paragraph in the lease if my terms aren't favorable do you think I'm going to disclose it? It would be like you telling your best customer about a competitors brand new 8 color Komori and the speed and quality of the work off the press. Would you do that? Then don't expect a copier rep to do it either. I was a Print for Pay rep for nearly 8 years and a Pressman, Jack of all trades in the production end of printing for an equal number of years and it never ceases to amaze me just how bad of business people some print shop owners can be.

Don't blame the copier guy, blame yourself because if you did as much research on financing and aquisition as you do on which product to buy a couple of things would likely happen,

• You'd have different equipment then you do now
• You'd be happier with the service provider
• You're customers would be happy with more competitive pricing
• Your business would have better cash flow as the equipment is financed in the most cost effective manner possible
• Your business would be growing faster

In those eight years selling to printers I noticed that those who had their financial house in order also had better reputations in the community, better on time delivery, better quality and were larger shops. This was not always the case as I had one small as in 3 people small that was determined to grow after buying the business which was on life suppport. They partnered with my company and bought some nice digital equipment and proceeded to go from just above a quarter million to nearly one million in sales in about 5 years. What made them different? The owner was an operations guy in an unrelated industry and his wife sold in the fashion industry. This couple knew how to sell and operate a business, they educated themselves on printing, bought a ton of gear from me. This was the guy who taught me about budgeted hourly rates and how improtant it is to know how much revenue a new piece of equipment should be expected to generate in order to be viable. Talk about building credibility as a sales rep, he knew I used to run presses and he asked me to go with him to look at a Ryobi he was thinking about buying. I went and it was a nice press that he bought. The point to that piece of the story is that a "Sleazy No Good F---ing Copier Rep" I had earned his trust and he asked me for advice on what was then his biggest purchase. I haven't sold in over 9 years and I still stop by when passing through. So all of us are not as you speak and a great many of you create your own problems.

RANT OFF

[PrintKidStuff]

You are correct. Back then, I didn't do my homework and got taken. However, having paid the big price last time and having had 0 calls from my rep until I expressed an interest in buying a new printer, my current provider seems to be trying to bank on our current 'good' relationship to sell me a bigger printer. Maybe if he'd helped educate me during my initial purchase, I might feel like I valued the relationship more now.

That 'honest' commissioned sales guy shouldn't be surprised if he doesn't get any more business from his dissatisified customer or refferals for that matter.

[PrintKidStuff]

you come back to the basics :
- Service and Support
- Who holds the financing paperwork
- Color quality, consistency
- Upgrade path
- And of course, pricing, lease+clicks

Thanks.
I'm curious about your 2nd point. What factors should I consider regarding who owns the financing paperwork?