Digital Copier/Press Facts v Fiction

[derricks]

I've been reading a lot here about a number of units in the high end copier lower end digital press as my company is looking to replace our Ricoh 3260 (horrifying experience btw).

We've had a number of sales teams come out from Canon, Xerox, Konica, Toshiba. After all the information myself and the other co-manager have digested we have a better picture of what things are good and bad, but of course each salesperson talks up their product.

We also have to sell that copier to the owner who can be very unrelenting on price issues.

As such, I was wondering if anyone here can give me some feedback on the following machines/prices I have available to me so I can make the best informed decision/sell that copier to the owner as the best option.

About us: We are a small-midsized graphic shop. We use the machine for graphics on cardstocks (as thick as possible would be nice....at least up to 110 lb cover 120 would be ideal). We make around 35000 black and white prints in a month, and 9000 color per month. We use the machine for scanning/emailing, doc server, simple stapling and collating. Our biggest issues with the Ricoh that we are hoping to avoid are quality and consistency. Speed isn't a big stickler for us. Our quality now is average at best, and the consistency and tech support is atrocious.

The machines we have sitting in front of us and pricing are as follows:
Konica Minolta 65hc $53,160.00 (C28o included)
Konica Minolta C5501 $41,495.00
Konica Minolta C652 $24,495.00
Xerox Color 550 $29,355.00
w/ fiery
Toshiba 6550CT $12,995.00

Each of the salespeople for these companies has, of course, assured us that these machines are perfect for our environment, but I'm hoping to get an unbiased (as much as possible) opinion on the differences between the machines and the companies from you guys. We were also questioning why the price for them varies quite a bit, especially with the Toshiba.

Any information you could offer up would be a great help.

[MagicBox]

If I were making the call it would by between the 550 and the 65hc. Toshiba is going to die after a yr, the C652 is an office machine, and 5501 is ancient in the market with consistency issues.

They'll all let you do trials. Pick one of the KM's and the Xerox and let them run side by side for a month. Then pick the one that actually works best for your needs

[tppsg]

Quality of service is even more important than the hardware. The best hardware is useless without effective service. If you are in the asia pacific region, check out the docucolour 1450. It will fit your requirements perfectly.

[Alith7]

with the volume, I would Highly recommend looking a little higher at the Konica C6501 with a Fiery. you DON'T need all the fancy add-ons, and the Large-Capacity Tray is useless! Don't let them fool you on that boat anchor. Avoid the C6500, it has an issue with the laser which they fixed in the C6501. Though they will also try to tell you otherwise.

I print 12pt constantly on my C6500 & C6501, and frequently abuse the hell out of them.

There are a few other aspects that you need to look at VERY carefully also. First, how the Monthly service contract is written in regards to base included clicks and per click costs. you will generally pay a flat monthly rate that will include XX number of color and XX number of B&W clicks. contract for that to be about half to 2/3 of your average volume. You will pay for those clicks regardless of if you use them, and they generally don't roll over into the next month, so you want to make sure you're covered in case of a "dry" month. Once that is set, then look at what you are being charged per click for color and B&W, and also, MAKE SURE that you aren't being charged double clicks for 11x17 (that's one that they like to sneak in, and MAKE SURE that you CONFIRM the machine is only counting single clicks once it is installed by checking the click count on the first few jobs. another "oops" they try to slip past you)

Second, check how your consumables are covered in the contract. Is there a limit to how much you can use a month? (there shouldn't be, but they'll try) Are ALL the consumables covered, including staples? (another thing they try to slip in and staples can be expensive)

Third, check on what the buy out requirements are at the end of the lease and make sure that you are comfortable with the terms. Sometimes a $1 buyout is the ideal, sometimes not, but make sure that you are comfortable with the terms. If not, tell them so. they want to sell you their copier in the worst way.

Lastly, try to get a price for the same machine from a different vendor if the option is available to you. If you don't know what deals there are and what not, only getting one price from one vendor could be iffy. some of them may try to pad the deal with a few grand just because they know you aren't looking anywhere else to compare the price. As a general rule, Copier salesmen tend to be on the same level as car salesmen. if they promise you anything GET IT IN WRITING! and file it with the contract papers. Salesmen will verbally promise you anything to make the sale, but may be more hesitant to inflate the truth of the machine if you insist on getting it in writing. I've heard "that's what the salesmen say to sell the machine, that's not the reality" from MANY of my techs until I learned better.

Good luck!

[derricks]

Am I correct in thinking that the 6501 is basically the same as the 5501 just a bit faster? I thought I remember someone saying to us that the first number is just how many sheets per minute the unit will run?


Thanks for the information though guys, it's really helpful, so keep it coming.

Any of those machines someone feels are the best, worst?

[Alith7]

Am I correct in thinking that the 6501 is basically the same as the 5501 just a bit faster? I thought I remember someone saying to us that the first number is just how many sheets per minute the unit will run?


Thanks for the information though guys, it's really helpful, so keep it coming.

Any of those machines someone feels are the best, worst?

I can check. I don't have experience with the 5501, we had a 5500 that just printed for crap that we inherited in a buy-out of a different shop.

[Chet]

Like Alith7 says, get the Konica Minolta 6500 or 5500 (depending on your speed needs) with only 1 Large capacity tray and no finishing options. (bare bones model) And make sure you get fiery and not a Creo.

[Shaja]

(Disclosure: I am the purchasing manager for an independently owned Konica Minolta dealer. I can speak to Konica product information only; I am not a sales rep and cannot compare models between manufacturers.)

C5501 and C6501 question - basically, yes. The accessories are mostly the same. The C6501 has more finishing options and an optional Creo print controller along with the two Fiery options. The C5501's maximum paper capacity is smaller and only uses the optional Fiery print controllers.

Going by your list of requirements, the Konica C65hc may be overkill. It's a bit of a niche machine, as it uses a special "high chroma" toner to handle an expanded color palette and sRGB color gamuts. I don't see anything in your requirements that indicates you have a need for that. ?

Don't get me wrong, it's a good machine (saw it at Graph Expo and got some print samples - the metallics pop like it's actual metal on the paper.) But, if you don't need the expanded color handling and your owner is price conscious, the C5501 or a used C6501 may be a better fit to your requirements.

[Alith7]

Like Alith7 says, get the Konica Minolta 6500 or 5500 (depending on your speed needs) with only 1 Large capacity tray and no finishing options. (bare bones model) And make sure you get fiery and not a Creo.

just to Clarify what I said... NOT the 6500 or the 5500...they have horrible color consistency. the 6501 or 5501 would be the only ones or newer though I'm not familiar with the newer ones.
Also NOT the LCT. it almost never feeds, and skews the paper so bad that registration is terrible no matter what you do!
finally, their simple finisher the small one that does basic saddle stitching and corner stapling is a good plan, though I wouldn't add the hole punch unless you use it frequently, it really slows the running times. The only other thing I would had to the finisher is the Post inserter if you do a lot of booklets or such, otherwise it's not much help.

Though I DO agree with the Fiery, our machines with Creo's tend to be more problems than the expense is worth.

[pacart]

I second the opinion to get the 6501, we have one with the bare minimum and we got the LCT, unfortunately what Alith7 is saying is true, the unit does skew and feeds like crap.

As for your list there, i would be willing to bet you could get a 6501 for 20K less than the price you have listed there for the 65hc with the upgraded fiery. Im not saying what we paid for ours, but experience says the prices you show are a bit high.