Replacing iGen3's HELP iGen4, NexPress, Bizhub or Imagepress

[happywing]

We have two iGen3's in our shop. The lease's expire in December. This is an in-house shop and we don't expect our volumes to increase (1 shift, about 300,000 clicks-per-month). If justified, we can get what we want, including Xerox (at a Xerox price). Our floorplan options:

1. Xerox - 1x iGen3 and 1x iGen4. We would renew one of our old 3's and pay maintenance/clicks.
2. Ricoh/Kodak - 1x Nexpress SX3300 and 1x Ricoh C901
3. Canon - 3x ImagePress 7010vp
4. KM - 3x BizHub 8000c

With choice 1, we know what we're getting, but it costs. Choice 2 is not much cheaper, but we have no previous experience. Choices 3 and 4 would save a lot of money, but would a current "iGen3 shop" be satisfied with these smaller units?

[arossetti]

300m 11" clicks? What are you printing, books, manuals, forms, marketing collateral? Text weight, cover, mix? Binding? Multiple paper stocks per run?

but would a current "iGen3 shop" be satisfied with these smaller units?

Depends on what you are printing.

[happywing]

Of course, good questions...

Sizes
70%-80% 12 x 18
30% smaller custom sizes for booklets

Paper
80% on 80# matte text
10% on 80# matte cover
10% on 100# matte cover

The work type is advertising and information (brochures, flyers and saddle-stitch booklets). All of the binding is offline.

[c2k]

having run both igen3 and the nexpress. I personally prefer the nexpress because of the longer up-time as long as the operators up keeps the maintenance on the nexpress. It's a solid, sound machine and our nexpresses runs 1.5 to 2 million imps a month between the 2 nexpresses we have (2500 and 3000). However, our advantage is we have several kodak service reps who are close by us and the turn-around time for service is fairly quick. That's one thing you'd need to look into it.

the advantage of the nexpress is it uses the 5th color (RGB) to extend the color gamut if you have a picky client who are very picky with their colors.

However, I dont know what the igen4 has to offer because I've never worked on one.

[happywing]

The NexPress did look solid to me. If we go with a large machine, it will be between iGen4 and NexPress. I am still struggling with the idea of a multiple mid-sized (BizHub, ImagePress, etc.) configuration. We could save a lot of money with mid-sized, but the savings is bound to come at some sort of cost.

[c2k]

The NexPress did look solid to me. If we go with a large machine, it will be between iGen4 and NexPress. I am still struggling with the idea of a multiple mid-sized (BizHub, ImagePress, etc.) configuration. We could save a lot of money with mid-sized, but the savings is bound to come at some sort of cost.

just to help you w/ your decision..

the company shut down 2 Heidelberg SM52 6 color press and all of the jobs that used to run on that press now runs on the nexpress. I dont know what is your company background, but if you do outsource jobs to go on the litho press cuz of the run size, the nexpress will be able to handle it. As a matter of fact, there's a job that's running on the nexpress right now for 6 hours straight w/o any jams.

[kgemini22]

We have two iGen3's in our shop. The lease's expire in December. This is an in-house shop and we don't expect our volumes to increase (1 shift, about 300,000 clicks-per-month). If justified, we can get what we want, including Xerox (at a Xerox price). Our floorplan options:

1. Xerox - 1x iGen3 and 1x iGen4. We would renew one of our old 3's and pay maintenance/clicks.
2. Ricoh/Kodak - 1x Nexpress SX3300 and 1x Ricoh C901
3. Canon - 3x ImagePress 7010vp
4. KM - 3x BizHub 8000c

With choice 1, we know what we're getting, but it costs. Choice 2 is not much cheaper, but we have no previous experience. Choices 3 and 4 would save a lot of money, but would a current "iGen3 shop" be satisfied with these smaller units?

We have one C8000 now, and I have considered getting another more than once. For the price, it does more than enough, especially with the finishing options. We've ran the thickest card stock possible on the C8000 compared to any other ( You can trick the machine and forcing it but it handles the larger, just fine ) toner based machine we've come across. I also just got back from GraphExpo, as for the volume I don't think you need to stick with the iGen / Indigo level machines if your product solutions aren't expanding beyond what you traditionally have. Those machines, create more overhead, and really the "CPC" doesn't always justify the overhead difference unless you are running 500k-1million pages or so, from what I've studied. If it were me, and it's only going to be for in-plant, then multiple C8000's are the way to go. 3 of them will give you redundancy it doesn't appear you've had the luxury of having yet as well.

[arossetti]

So 600,000 8.5x11 equivalent clicks per month.

2 800's running 1 shift with 80% up time gets you 300,000 clicks per week. Why the over kill with 3 iGen's and or/equivalent? I would renew 1 iGen 3 and add an x800 or equivalent. Your electric bill will drop drastically with an 800 over an iGen. The power required for an iGen is roughly $3k per month per shift. Obviously that depends on your rates but.

[design]

Canon imagepress is an better choice if there no bigger size sheet printing requirement,machine is much reliable and productive

[soontobeexkonicauser]

Of course, good questions...

Sizes
70%-80% 12 x 18
30% smaller custom sizes for booklets

Paper
80% on 80# matte text
10% on 80# matte cover
10% on 100# matte cover

The work type is advertising and information (brochures, flyers and saddle-stitch booklets). All of the binding is offline.

The C8000's Achilles heel is large sheets. For that matter, any KM device seems to choke and puke more frequently when running large sizes. It also speed degrades dramatically on heavier stocks, averaging no more than 1000 sheets/per hour in net through put due to tray weight limitations, constant need for the machine to readjust, the additional dwell time added by the second heater on cover stock, etc.

Duplexing is also a huge speed degrade on the C8000. We have never been able to run any job at rated speed or close to rated speed. There was a white paper out on it that suggested it's net up time is about 47% and I would have to concur that number is not far off.

I would stick with the larger production units. It's not about electrical consumption, best quality, or capital cost. It's about how many sheets can you get through the press on a consistent basis at good quality and sell them. C8000 is not your best friend to accomplish that.