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Thread: P A N T O N E Thoughts on 9/11

  1. #1
    D Ink Man is offline Senior Member
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    Default P A N T O N E Thoughts on 9/11

    Is there anyone out there that prints (any printing type) that does not encounter the usage of Pantone guides in their work environment? It is felt that it will be hard to find anyone on the planet, any printer worldwide, that doesn't utilize PMS to some extent. If you use Pantone, could you please offer any comments to its worthniness.

    I will start the commentary with but one example, PANTONE 123. If possible. please compare the coated guide versus the uncoated guide. Pantone claims this 123 is printed with the same ink at the same ink film. Hmmm.

    Thank you for further comments and experiences in regards to Pantone.

  2. #2
    GazKL440 is offline Senior Member
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    Pantone books should never be shown to a client..... 'nuff said

    Comparing PMS123 on uncoated and coated stocks is like most coated-uncoated comparos... the same ink on different substrates will look slightly different, ever done business cards on gloss stock and letter heads on bond for one client?? I guess it would have to do with the reflective qualities of coated versus uncoated that can give a different result with unchanged ink films appearing cleaner or stronger or whatever...

    As for the worthiness of pantone.... well it does provide an industry standard that works well enough, and the guides do make it easy to mix up when required, and sometimes its amusing to compare an old copy of a job with a swatch and wonder what page the bloke who printed that was looking at...
    Last edited by GazKL440; 09-12-2009 at 09:29 AM. Reason: cos i can
    Just get on with it. Its as simple as that.

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    D Ink Man is offline Senior Member
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    Sir GazKL440,

    Pantone 123 is NOT like most coated versus uncoated comparisons for a single ink entity. It is night and day by comparison. Sir, which edition and printing of the Pantone guides are you viewing and comparing? It is felt that it is a monstrous problem for printers and ink makers, not talking about the print customers.

    One other thing, compare the ink film thickness of base line Rhodamine versus Reflex, in the best manner you can. Do a simple press test of the solid colors. See what you find.

    In defense of Pantone a bit, they realize the shortcomings of the Pantone Master system which has led to the creation of the GOE Pantone system. Unfortunately, our industry has not latched onto the GOE system which would allieviate many of our Pantone problems.

    Also unfortunate, is that even if GOE catches on, the monster of the standard Pantone guide will still exist. The only way to tame the beast would be to discontinue the current standard guide. We all will not live long enough to see it completely die, but it could be diminished if GOE would take flight.

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    GazKL440 is offline Senior Member
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    Im not viewing any particular edition of the pantone book, i know from having PRINTED it sir... many times on different stocks and having mixed it many times too not just ordering some tins... its not a problem for the men on machines, just another job on the list, and at the end of the day the print customer is THE MOST IMPORTANT link in the chain. They generally dont care HOW we achieve a saleable job, just that its delivered on time in good order...so the apparent pros and cons of the pantone sysem are a fairly moot point sir.
    Just get on with it. Its as simple as that.

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    D Ink Man is offline Senior Member
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    Have the "men on the machines" print Pantone Reflex Blue on a 60# Offset Uncoated Sheet. Have a form with SOLID coverage run in line, (the same printing channel), with some HIGHLIGHT screens (say 10-25%). Make sure that you run the Pantone Reflex Blue to spectrophotometric or EQUAL DENSITY to the Pantone Uncoated Guide. How do your HIGHLIGHT screens look and print SIR? Would your print customer really be satisfied with the print job? Hope you now understand this. If not, hopefully another forum member will comment on this subject to break our stalemate. Respectfully and nuf said.

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    To: D Ink Man

    There's some more info here: Quality In Print: Custom, Spot, Brand, and Pantone Colors - part 3 of 4
    However, in general, Pantone inks are formulated to be printed as solids - NOT halftone screened. As a result, depending on your press chemistry/condition and the particular ink you are using you may, or may not have press issues. If you want to screen a PMS ink you need to discuss that need specifically with whoever is formulating your ink.
    Also, with Reflex Blue, most ink vendors offer an alternative that provided better printability while delivering the same perceived hue. Again, if you're going to halftone screen the color - talk to your ink supplier.

    best, gordon p
    Last edited by gordo; 11-10-2009 at 05:03 PM.

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    D Ink Man is offline Senior Member
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    Dear Gordo, Thank you for your reply sir.

    I understand that PMS spots are suppose to run as solids, but sir, in the real world, many times you will run into this situation where thay are screened and run as solid on the same form. I guess we could blame the designers, but they normally have little knowledge of the potential problems that can be encountered when lithographing.

    Gordo, one other thing. Could you please offer some comment on the Pantone 123 situation, COATED guide vs. UNCOATED guide and a one ink to satisfy both theory. Much appreciated. And thank you for your thread on Quality In Print: Custom, Spot, Brand, and Pantone Colors - part 3 of 4 . You have always been very helpful, intelligible with providing accurate information at Print planet. Thank you for all your efforts and education.

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    rapid3 is offline Junior Member
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    The main reason that coated & uncoated PMS colors appear different is that the
    PANTONE system is based on using the same ink and showing how it looks on
    different substrates. It is not based upon Lab values for color. If it were, we would have
    to have a different PANTONE mix for every different stock that was printed on. As for
    the reference to REFLEX blue. PMS colors have different print characteristics than do
    process colors, so you need different plates curves for them.

  9. #9
    gordo's Avatar
    gordo is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Ink Man View Post
    Dear Gordo, Thank you for your reply sir.

    I understand that PMS spots are suppose to run as solids, but sir, in the real world, many times you will run into this situation where thay are screened and run as solid on the same form. I guess we could blame the designers, but they normally have little knowledge of the potential problems that can be encountered when lithographing.

    Gordo, one other thing. Could you please offer some comment on the Pantone 123 situation, COATED guide vs. UNCOATED guide and a one ink to satisfy both theory. Much appreciated.
    Correct - but there is no one to blame, there should be just an awareness about the characteristics of the tools one works with. IMHO it is up to the printer to recognize during the sales, or quotation, or job planning stage that the project will have PMS colors screened back. That should raise a "red flag" and cause the potential issue to be dealt with before it gets to press. This is not a Pantone problem – it is an ink formulation issue.

    As rapid3 notes: "The main reason that coated & uncoated PMS colors appear different is that the
    PANTONE system is based on using the same ink and showing how it looks on different substrates. It is not based upon Lab values for color."

    Pantone colors are based on ink mixing formulae - not CIEL*a*b* values. Again, IMHO, it is up to the printer to determine/clarify the customer's color target and then deliver on that expectation.

    best, gordon p
    dabob likes this.

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    Lukas Engqvist is offline Senior Member
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    Not to argue with what is said, but to share from a practical point of view:

    The biggest problem with pantone is the lack of education (or rather the stuck up attitude of design houses) that lack willingnes to understand the limitations of the real world. There are also a number of substrates that are not matched by any book. The problem with Pantone is two fold:
    1) It has limits as to defining a colour, mainly due to the designer omitting the conditions for the colour (eg coated) and a slackness in creating profile manuals.
    2) Once the customers need is clear then the time (and willingness to pay for it) to acheive the desired result.

    The same problem occurs with other corporate colours, for the same reason. Most common is to find corporate identity defined for coated stock even if corporate printed matter is to be printed exclusively on uncoated.
    Here also the problem is that many teaching in design schools lack real world understanding/experience.
    Sev and dabob like this.


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