Horizon AFC 564 or 566 Folder

[erth]

Does anyone have any experience with the automated Standard Horizon AFC 564A or 566 folders?

I am considering either the comparably priced Baum B-20 3/3 or the Stahl B-20 4/4 - but if the Horizon is really as easy to use as advertised - then almost anyone who can run a cutter can also run the folder.

The literature on the 546 shows that it can't make a roll fold - I guess to get that fold you need the extra gates on the 566.

Other than the additional costs - are there any drawbacks to the Horizon compared with the B-20 models.
Erth

[Craig]

Make sure you find out how much it is to replace those servo motors when they go bad. It really only takes a few minutes to set up a manual folder.

[erth]

Good point on the servos Craig. I'll check with the sales/repair people.

We have some form of servos on the Heidelberg GTOV and we haven't had any problems with them yet.

I see from a past discussion that you intended to buy a Baum 20. Pricing on the Baum and Stahl are close - with the Stahl costing about $1,200 more but has a 4/4 setup as opposed to the Baum 3/3.

A single additional plate on the Baum would cost about $1,000 getting them back to about even in price.

Assuming that you considered the Stahl and found the same pricing situation - what was it about the Baum won the day?
Erth

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

Have had a 544 for 4 years, we do a lot of make readies and some really small run digital jobs, so it is a perfect fit. Have not had any problems with servo motors, they are all stepper motors and even if you block them they will just keep pulsing and not "burn out", you could put them in a vise and step 10,000 pulses and they would not fail. If you have long run sig work then yes get a drum feed MBO (dirt cheap these days), but if you are like most of us who deal with short runs and quick turns then the Std folder will destroy an MBO on makeready, and you can teach a high school kid how to run it in an afternoon and pay him 10 bucks and hour. We have a Baum 2020 and since getting the new folder have only used it 2 times in 4 years, no one in bindery will opt for the Baum over the Std... When people talk about being able to set up a folder quick they generally mean 15-30 minutes and a pile of makeready on a conventional folder, well if you have 50 roll folds, 500 quarter folders, and 150 bifolds, I can set up folder and run ALL of these jobs in 10 minutes and that is no BS, I have timed it. All different stocks (no scores or perfs) and with 2, 3 sheets of makeready per job.

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

yes you can do a 4 panel roll fold on any 4 buckle folder, the horizon just does not have a pre-programmed icon for it, 3 panels into first plate then down, down...

[MSLDoug]

I would not recommend to anyone to buy a manual folder today. You used to sell folding when you did 2 or 3 thousand or more. Now you need to fold 50 or 500 and the fold patterns can be complicated as amateur artists design digital masterpieces that are finishing nightmares. With offset you have set up sheets to use to set up the folder. With digital every sheet wasted to set up the folder costs just as much or more than the ones you deliver to your customer. Today you are really selling the set up of the folder, 50 sheets will fold in 30 seconds once the job is set up. You can do that and make money with an automated folder. You can do folds that would take hours to get perfect on a manual folder and do them in minutes even the first time you set up a difficult job that isn't a preset. This is because it is easier to figure out how to dial in a tough fold imposition when you are doing it by numbers on a touch screen. Make a move and if you are wrong put the number back or move a different plate, run one sheet and see the result seconds later. You can chase your tail on a manual folder where the user interface makes it much easier for a person that isn't a skilled folder operator. They are more expensive but they keep giving back to you every time you use them and they will last for years. Horizon equipment is unmatched especially with the reliability of the electronics.

[mpellman]

Being able to setup a folder quickly is great, but quick setup does not mean a quality fold. BAUM provides the choice of manual setup, manual setup with a computer tutorial to show you how to get a quality fold and an automated setup model. Being able to press buttons and make paperstops and guides move automatically may appear to save time, but in reality you will still need to make minor adjustments to both automated and manual machines to obtain a quality fold. You will either turn a knob or press a touch screen. Factors affecting quality folding are: out of square paper, print stretch from job to job and paper weight or grain changes etc.

THe key question here is: even though you can purchase an automated folder from either BAUM or Horizon, which folder tells you what to do to make the proper adjustments to make a Quality fold? BAUM provides you with the ifold technology that includes "See How" videos and troubleshooting guides. Many people are facinated with being able to press the buttons, but which fold plate do you need to adjust to move the fold to the correct position when the fold line is not correct? BAUM helps determine this. BAUM also provides hints on when scoring is needed and how to do this.


THe Horizon folder models with the fixed knife included cannot perform folding jobs that require all scoring in the first station and then folding in the second station when you have oblong feeding. The knife location requires the sheet to be offset for scoring and cannot even perfform a simple 11 x 17 oblong job scoring only in the 1st station and then folded in the right angle for a roll fold. The BAUM units can perform this.

Another situation to be aware of is that the number one area of setup is the slittershaft area. Here is an area that no one automates but it requires more setup time than any other part. BAUM provides you with a completely removable cartridge slittershaft. YOu can add addtional cartridge assemblies to your equipment for a quick change over using preset tooling and save much more time that you will pressing buttons for setup. THis is a standard feature on all BAUM 20 manual and automated floor model BAUM 20 Series folders.

[Craig]

It all depends on the operator skill level. If you have the high school kids then get an automated folder, save on the labor (hopefully) in the long run. If you have common sense operators with a little skill, get a manual folder. It literally takes 10 minutes for us to set up our new Baum 2020 for a letter fold, scoring on the parallel and folding on the 8 page with less than 10 wasted sheets, and we are a digital shop. Almost everything we fold gets scored first (Ultimate Scores are the bomb), so we have an extra step with the slitter cassette. This is my choice, it produces a nicer finished product.

Just because it's automated does not mean it's mistake proof!

[ondemandbindery]

Don't even think that this is a fix all solution for folding. It isn't. I have seen results from cheap labor on these machines and ohhhhhhhhhhh wowwwwwwww. If I had an all digital shop I would most likely have one if the work justified it though. I like the concept. And they are pretty reliable. The trick to really making this thing work is having a consistent workflow to it. I can take a MBO T-49 and have letterfolds set up and producing quality work in under 2 minutes with maybe 20 wasted sheets but the additional waste is the way I get the fast makeready. Day in and day out you won't outrun one of these automated folders if you have multiple jobs in short quantity. But there are limitations to it and craig is right. A scored digital piece just looks nicer. If you want a hang it bang it machine I would say look at it. Just don't expect to have quality folding after a few hours of training. And remember, you can never put quality back into a job.

Good luck,
John Weaver

Oh yeah, MBO has spiral rollers so there is almost 0 chance of seeing roller bite. Food for thought....