Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

[phantasm]

Hi All,

It's nice to have found this forum!

I am looking to print a 7 ink job (CMYK + 3 spot) in the UK. This job requires Stochastic/FM screening as the inks are nearly all interacting and there's no other way I know of to avoid Moire effects.

It's been a few years since I've printed this sort of work and I am now having real problems finding a printer who can provide this screening service. The ones I have contacted so far give a range of reactions; recoil in horror to "what's that?". Ug! I have one or two printers who have yet to respond so I live in hope.

But my question is twofold:

1) Why is this screening technique so uncommon? It was such a hot topic in the mid-90's. Does nobody request true Hi-Fi color jobs anymore apart from specialists in packaging?

2) Can anybody recommend a UK printer who has good experience of this screening method?

A local printer who I use otherwise offered to go half-half on the stochastic screening add-on for their RIP (they have no other customer who requests this, so it seems very fair), but their lack of experience in this technique is a slight detractor at present.

Best wishes,

Nick

[tmiller_iluvprinting]

Nicholas,
You may want to try to contact Peter Arnel. He is a frequent contributor to many of these forums and he may be able to help you. His email is ptrarnel@aol.com.
Very best regards,
Todd

[PeterA]

Nicholas
I print nearly all my jobs 20 micron Stacatto - However I would recommend

http://www.taylorbloxham.co.uk/

they are most likely leaders in the UK

Peter

[phantasm]

Hi Todd and Peter,

Many thanks for your responses - very helpful. I will be contacting Taylor Bloxham.

After many more enquiries today, I am even more under the impression that Stochastic screening is now a very specialist area and out of the remit for many printers. Or this is possibly a UK thing?

Best wishes,

Nick

[PeterA]

Nick
I dont think its just the UK - Kodak wanted to buy sample off me ti show to other printers !!!

I am very interested in what you arer doing - are you trying to run 7 coloiur process

[gordo]

RE: After many more enquiries today, I am even more under the impression that Stochastic screening is now a very specialist area and out of the remit for many printers. Or this is possibly a UK thing?


Actually its not that Stochastic is a very specialist area that you don't hear as much about it. It's because it's now a fairly mainstream screening option and hence no longer controversial (i.e. news-worthy). For example, in the US and Canada, 80% of Yellow pages directories and 60% of newspaper inserts use this type of screening. Over 70% of entrants to the International Premier awards (the "Bennys") last year used this type of screening...so much so that the organization was considering dropping stochastic screening as a separate category.

best, gordo

[pmonkey]

Exactly, gordo!

We (a US company) have been printing stochastic since early 2003. Within 6 months of the start, we were printing about 90% of all jobs stochastic 20 micron, and within a year we were at 99%.

Today, it is highly unusual for us to ever print conventional screening. We also have one Ryobi 3302, and we print 25 micron stochastic on that machine, too.

I don't think stochastic has gone away, it's now just an item that has lost it's novelty from the early days.

[LoweringTheBar]

One of the main reasons Stochastic is not as popular with some commercial shops is that it requires "Change" in the press room, and most pressmen would rather have a vasectomy with a power drill and a blow torch than change the way they've been doing things since the Kennedy administration.

Stochastic uses less water on press and may require different fountain solutions and slightly different press room procedures. Another problem with Stochastic is that you don't have as much latitude on press to push colors drastically in a crunch, as you can with standard AM screening. This means that your plates must be calibrated to match your proof and press sheets with a high degree of accuracy. This also means that prepress and the pressroom must work together in a euphoric state of pro-active, team-oriented bliss; driven by a common love for their craft and striving to provide the highest quality product, whilst minimizing finger pointing when obstacles arise. (use of the word "whilst" was used strictly for the enjoyment of our British friends across the pond.)

Naturally, the ideal Stochastic scenario described above has never actually happened, at least not here in the U.S. Rumor has it that Stochastic is quite popular in Amsterdam, but only if everyone involved is smoking crack... which is not only legal over there, but is distributed through their public schools.

But seriously, let's be honest about why Stochastic has been slow to catch on. The real reason is that pressman are lazy bastards. No really.... I'm not just making this up. Here you'll find an actual conversation with a real, live pressman, repeated here for your reading pleasure.

Prepress: "We're getting complaints that you're experience color shifts on press and you can't match our proofs. Our dots are reading fine on the plates, and are within industry tolerances. Also, our proofs are showing no signs of calibration shifts. When was the last time you changed your blankets?"

Pressman: "Listen you little %$#$% geek, I've been changing my blankets the same way since the Kennedy administration. If we can't hit the proofs then the plates have changed" (burps)

Prepress: "Well, how many impressions can you get out of your blankets?"

Pressman: Listen you &%#$ maggot faced &^%$# computer turd, I change blankets on a regular basis... major holidays, presidential inaugurations, you know... when I sense that a lot of time has gone by." (farts)

Prepress: "But what happens when the blanket gets worn, you know, after say...3 million impressions?"

Pressman: "Hell son, I just compress my roller pressure until I smash the &%$# out of that blanket. (throws back a huge gulp of Coors Light). You wouldn't believe how tough them things are. When they get as thin as toilet paper... that's when I pull em off! (farts again. Pops open a fresh Coors Light) Then, if I still can't hit the proofs after squeezin them rollers, I crank up my ink densities a little bit... you know, only like 30 or 40 points. Nothin' I aint been doin' for years The important thing is not to waste money... hurts company profits, and that means less beer."

Prepress: "Doesn't it hurt company profits to neglect your equipment and churn out crappy printing?"

Pressman: "Why you little #$@! mother &*%$# ass faced *&^%$ techno lovin' *&&%%..................."

As you can see from this very real and enlightening conversation, changing blankets and performing general maintenance on a press involves something called "Manual Labor" (similar to effort, or exertion), and this is something pressman try desperately to avoid. It may have something to do with the vast amounts of alcohol pressman consume both during and after their shifts, but studies are still pending.

Regardless, if you're job depends on a pressman performing any function other than swilling cheap beer, or using profanity in the presence of women and children, you'd better keep your resume updated.

Edited by: LoweringTheBar on May 1, 2008 1:03 PM

[gordo]

LoweringTheBar points out objections to FM/Stochastic adoption that I hear all too often. I'll try to answer them.

RE: "One of the main reasons Stochastic is not as popular with some commercial shops is that it requires "Change" in the press room, and most pressmen would rather have a vasectomy with a power drill and a blow torch than change the way they've been doing things since the Kennedy administration."

This is a print shop management issue. Press operators (and prepress folk) will often have the understandable attitude of "why fix it if it ain't broke" This attitude has slowed the adoption of many technologies in the printshop - not just different screening technologies. If they do not see an ROI in making a change that relates to their part of the print manufacturing process then they've got a good point. So, IMHO, it is up to management to explain the value/ROI of making the change in terms that prepress and press operator can relate to. It is sometimes as simple as "If we don't adopt this technology we will be out of business and you will be out of a job"

RE: "Stochastic uses less water on press and may require different fountain solutions and slightly different press room procedures."

Maybe yes maybe no. Certainly not much different than moving to a higher lpi hybrid AM/XM screen. And going to finer screens is a continuing trend. I certainly don't see the reverse - i.e. printers moving to coarser screens even though running 85 lpi on a web or sheetfed would likely be easier for all concerned than 150/175 lpi

RE: "Another problem with Stochastic is that you don't have as much latitude on press to push colors drastically in a crunch, as you can with standard AM screening."

True, although you can certainly move the color. If you have to move color drastically then something has gone terribly wrong somewhere. Trying to "fix" or "make" color on a press is very expensive and not very effective. Also, the industry is rapidly adopting GCR separation techniques to enhance color stability on press (and save on ink). FM has a similar color stability to GCR separations.

RE: "This means that your plates must be calibrated to match your proof and press sheets with a high degree of accuracy."

This is the same issue for any press/proofing situation.

RE: "This also means that prepress and the pressroom must work together in a euphoric state of pro-active, team-oriented bliss; driven by a common love for their craft and striving to provide the highest quality product, whilst minimizing finger pointing when obstacles arise. (use of the word "whilst" was used strictly for the enjoyment of our British friends across the pond.) "

Actually I prefer to believe that prepress and pressroom would work together out of enlghtened self interest - i.e. make their jobs easier and their pay packet more secure. Communicating that understanding is the job of management.

best, gordo

[LoweringTheBar]

Hi Gordo,

I just printed out your response and excitedly showed it to one of our pressman. I think I can have it removed from my posterior with minor outpatient surgery. So much for "enlightened self interest"! Next time I'll wrap it around a Coors Light can... that always works.

____________________
"Actually I prefer to believe that prepress and pressroom would work together out of enlightened self interest - i.e. make their jobs easier and their pay packet more secure. That understanding is the job of management."
____________________

Did you borrow that from a Phil Jackson "Zen Coaching & You" luncheon provided by Kodak? (hehe) Sing along Gordo... I'd like to teach the world to sing , In perfect harmony , I'd like to buy the world a Coke , And keep it company.... altogether now!

We use Kodak products exclusively, and they are awesome. All of the problems we've had with Stochastic are because of ownership not wanting to commit to the technology, and worn out pressman who won't change their water until it has the same consistency as a Grande Caramel Mochiato. If you're interested in being a pressroom supervisor, please let me know. I hope you like Coors Light.