Creeping (Shingling) Saddle Stitch w/ Crossovers

[Jimmy]

I got a nightmare job recently. It was an 84 page saddle stitch job with crossovers (photos) on every single page and to make things worse, there was a .375" white border on each spread as well.

I explained to the customer creep (shingling) issues and told him that this will be a challenge for us, especially to keep the white border consistent. He insisted to saddle stitch the job.

I normally would creep (shingle) this in Preps but I couldn't because of the cross overs. If I did creep it in Preps, a slice of the image closest to the spine would be missing. I ended up figuring out how much I needed to creep each page and did it all in INDD. It was a mathematical nightmare and it took forever to adjust the INDD file accordingly.

Have you encountered jobs like this? Is there an easier solution that has worked for you?

[Joe]

I got a nightmare job recently. It was an 84 page saddle stitch job with crossovers (photos) on every single page and to make things worse, there was a .375" white border on each spread as well.

I explained to the customer creep (shingling) issues and told him that this will be a challenge for us, especially to keep the white border consistent. He insisted to saddle stitch the job.

I normally would creep (shingle) this in Preps but I couldn't because of the cross overs. If I did creep it in Preps, a slice of the image closest to the spine would be missing. I ended up figuring out how much I needed to creep each page and did it all in INDD. It was a mathematical nightmare and it took forever to adjust the INDD file accordingly.

Have you encountered jobs like this? Is there an easier solution that has worked for you?

In Preps 5.3 and Preps 6 there is an option for creep scaling which scales the page in the horizontal direction. It's not enough of a scale to notice in most cases but it allows you to shingle pages that crossover.

[kyle]

The only way to preserve the borders AND the cross-overs AND not adjust the relative position of different elements on the page (by moving images within their clipping frames and moving objects closer to each other) is to disproportionally reduce the pages from spread center in the X axis only. Every four pages on a final "signature" would have the same percentage reduction and all four page groups would be different from each other. I've never done that, but would probably do so with a job like that. Shingling algorithms are usually linear, which doesn't accurately model reality (while the pages in the middle lose width, the outside pages also gain width, and the effect grows non-linearly with increasing book thickness), so even going to that extreme doesn't guarantee precise results.

If a book has lots of cross-overs I usually don't compensate for shingling, but that wouldn't be feasible for 84 pages. When I do compensate for shingling with books containing cross-overs, I usually let the RIP automatically move every page, but I manually move the cross-over elements the opposite direction in the PDF with Pitstop, so that the net effect is that the cross-over elements stay where they are but everything else on the page moves.

I've attached the Excel document I created to calculate those distances. Only two fields are meant to be input: total pages and caliper. The caliper is in inches because that's how paper caliper is usually specified. The automatically calculated distance field is the total shingle distance and is in millimeters, because I have our RIP set to use metric units for more precision. For each page, the distance and direction to move the artwork is given in inches. It does not give the direction the RIP will move the pages in, but rather the opposite direction because the objects need to move against the direction of shingling compensation.

[RickS]

We have this problem often.
Joe, your comment about Preps 5.3 having an option for creep scaling sounds like the answer I have been looking for, but I can't find it in our current version 5.3. Were is it or do I need to look at an upgrade which I would do for this feature alone if I knew it was there. I have not found any reference to this on Kodaks website.

[DCurry]

You need 5.3.3 for that feature. It is a free update on eCentral.

[WiseGuy]

With inpO2 from Dynagram, you get a visual of the pages and the creep amount being applied to each page. Then you can go into the page list and either disable creep for the crossover pages, or adjust the creep to moderate the amount of movement.

No matter what, cross overs are a pain with creep. Good luck!

[Jimmy]

It looks like Joe's solution would be the best way to go but I did a test and it looks like you would have to print out each signature at different percentages. It would be little cumbersome but not nearly as bad as my solution.

Kyle, That Excel file is sweet and will be real handy. Thanks

[Joe]

It looks like Joe's solution would be the best way to go but I did a test and it looks like you would have to print out each signature at different percentages. It would be little cumbersome but not nearly as bad as my solution.

Kyle, That Excel file is sweet and will be real handy. Thanks

No, you do not have to print out each signature at different percentages. You put the creep amount in and then check the box for creep scaling. Ir works the exact way as creep instead of moving pages it scales them in the horizontal direction. As DCurry mentioned you do need to upgrad to 5.3.3 to get this feature. See attached.

[Jimmy]

Thanks everyone! I just upgraded to Preps 5.3.3, did a test and it works beautifully.

[Joe]

Thanks everyone! I just upgraded to Preps 5.3.3, did a test and it works beautifully.

Yes, it does doesn't it? I use it all the time. Glad it worked for you.