Staccato 10 mk are really 10 mk?

[Pavel_SPb]

What’s size of dot Staccato 10 mk on the printed sheet? Theoretically – 11,5mk (if dot gain 15%)? According to my measurement on the printed sheet (plate reader VIP CAM 122): black, magenta, yellow – about 15-16 mk and cyan – 12 mk. Is it normall?

[gordo]

What’s size of dot Staccato 10 mk on the printed sheet? Theoretically – 11,5mk (if dot gain 15%)? According to my measurement on the printed sheet (plate reader VIP CAM 122): black, magenta, yellow – about 15-16 mk and cyan – 12 mk. Is it normall?

Staccato dot sizes on a 2400 dpi device are: 10.6 microns for the highlight dot and 15.9 microns for the midtones. That is the size of the dots generated by the RIP. Those dot sizes can be affected by the CtP device type, the plate type and exposure/processing. They are also affected by the press condition and paper. The dot sizes reported by your instrument are also affected by how it determines the threshold between what is a dot and what is not a dot.

What is important is the consistency of the dot that's imaged. On plate, the dot sizes for a given percent tone should be the same whatever the color ink the plate will be printed with. On press, those plate dots will be distorted according to the press condition (and your instrument's method of determining dot size).

best, gordo

[Pavel_SPb]

Thanks Gordo for answer. On the off chance, excuse me for my English, if you see mistakes…
You say: «On press, those plate dots will be distorted according to the press condition (and your instrument's method of determining dot size)». OK. I understand, that my VIP CAM 122 is a plate reader, but it has the option measuring on the paper and the option AM/FM. I understand when you say “The dot sizes reported by your instrument are also affected by how it determines the threshold between what is a dot and what is not a dot”. OK.
Admit here, if I say 12 mikron – it is 12 any nominal units. 12mk = 12 n.u.. I see on plate – 10 n.u., on press Cyan 12 n.u.. Cyan – 2-th section of press, Heidelberg 102, ink-whater 35%-40%. On press B, M, Y – 15-16 n.u. The cyan’s dot is not same as the magenta’s dot. It’s normal? This observation do not change with the times. The press condition and instrument is one and the same – the dot sizes reported by my instrument are one and the same, is’t it?
If cyan may be 12 n.u., when I must obtain the same result for B,C,Y-inks? How works other print shops with Staccato screening (whish you know)? If to see his 5% dot – his instrument show him the different of measurement?
Why I say 5% – in the range 0-5% RIP generate the square dot (size of side 10.6 mk) – it’s as the atom of Staccato screening. In the range 6-99% pith up (com on) “the worms” (they made from square dots). “The worm” is as the molecule of Staccato screening. Is it all right? Is it the good point (5%) for the press condition control of the Staccato screening? Other print houses observe this point?
Once, you attached images for AM-screening and wrote to have control out the shape and size of dot (on plate and on press). Can you attached images of the 5%-dot Staccato screening? It’s interesting for me to see the 5%-dot of any good print house (who good work with Staccato 10 mk). I do not see it in Petersburg, no one works with Staccato screening here.
We have not usb-microscope now, we are going to buy it. What is better the usb-microscope for watch Staccato (10mk) – 200x ; 5 Mb or 250-400x and 2 Mb?
Thanks
Pavel

[gordo]

You say: «On press, those plate dots will be distorted according to the press condition (and your instrument's method of determining dot size)». OK. I understand, that my VIP CAM 122 is a plate reader, but it has the option measuring on the paper and the option AM/FM. I understand when you say “The dot sizes reported by your instrument are also affected by how it determines the threshold between what is a dot and what is not a dot”. OK.
Admit here, if I say 12 mikron – it is 12 any nominal units. 12mk = 12 n.u.. I see on plate – 10 n.u., on press Cyan 12 n.u.. Cyan – 2-th section of press, Heidelberg 102, ink-whater 35%-40%. On press B, M, Y – 15-16 n.u. The cyan’s dot is not same as the magenta’s dot. It’s normal? This observation do not change with the times. The press condition and instrument is one and the same – the dot sizes reported by my instrument are one and the same, is’t it?

This is how your VIP Cam "sees" the dot. (First image on the left)


The VIP Cam then "thresholds" the image. It decides that grey tones lower than a certain value are the dot. And that grey tones higher than a certain value are the paper. The grey tone threshold can result in very different measurements - as shown by the three other images. As you can see there is a wide possibility for error and variation in the dot size that your VIP cam reports.
It is also possible for the cyan dot size to be different from the magenta. When you get your microscope you might see why.

If cyan may be 12 n.u., when I must obtain the same result for B,C,Y-inks? How works other print shops with Staccato screening (whish you know)? If to see his 5% dot – his instrument show him the different of measurement?

The 0%-5% are usually linear on the plate (or no curve applied). The dots on the press sheet can measure different with your VIP cam because of the reasons above. Also that they are printed at different densities - so the threshold changes.

Why I say 5% – in the range 0-5% RIP generate the square dot (size of side 10.6 mk) – it’s as the atom of Staccato screening. In the range 6-99% pith up (com on) “the worms” (they made from square dots). “The worm” is as the molecule of Staccato screening. Is it all right?

Yes. The square dot - 10.6 micron - is the "atom" the smallest feature of Staccato. The worm is the molecule (structure) made of the atoms. The worm is 1 dot wide but many dots long.

Is it the good point (5%) for the press condition control of the Staccato screening? Other print houses observe this point?

No. To set up Staccato 10 you would check the press condition of the halftone from 100% to 1%. For print production you look at the same color control patches that you look at with regular AM screening.

Once, you attached images for AM-screening and wrote to have control out the shape and size of dot (on plate and on press). Can you attached images of the 5%-dot Staccato screening? It’s interesting for me to see the 5%-dot of any good print house (who good work with Staccato 10 mk). I do not see it in Petersburg, no one works with Staccato screening here.

The dots look like this:
20x on the left and 200x on the right:



I will try to find single color patches for you. You can buy samples. For example Canadian postage stamps are printed with Staccato 10 (as are the stamps of some 40 other countries - maybe your country?). The Post Office sells uncut press sheets which have the stamps and color bars:

http://www.canadapost.ca/shop/stamp-...execution=e1s2

We have not usb-microscope now, we are going to buy it. What is better the usb-microscope for watch Staccato (10mk) – 200x ; 5 Mb or 250-400x and 2 Mb?

I don't know. My USB microscope is 20x/200x 1.5 mb and is good enough for me.

I hope this helps! gordo

[Pavel_SPb]

Already it is the great help, Gordo, (my poor English hardly can express this quantity)! You literally pulled out two nails doubts from my head.

Press sheets of Canadian postage stamps – it’s curiosity… but I hope to hold the press sheet (made me) before I can receive it from Canada (from Germany there were 3 months once).

Most important for me, I saw the picture similar to those that we receive on our press sheet. I was confused by distortion of a shape of a dot which turns out at us.
Staccato 10 mk are really... looks perfectly on the press sheet!
But other questions already push each other - set me the first... I hope to continue our dialogue here. OK?
Thanks
Pavel

[Pavel_SPb]

G7 is a basis for “shared appearance” that aligns the appearance of diverse printing methods as closely as possible to each other...

Can I use of G7-method to align the FM-tone response to the current AM?
NDPC (CMY - only gray scale and K – only gray scale) is the standard of comparison for tone values?

[gordo]

G7 is a basis for “shared appearance” that aligns the appearance of diverse printing methods as closely as possible to each other...

Some people would say that printing to an industry standard, like ISO 12647-2 achieves that goal.

Can I use of G7-method to align the FM-tone response to the current AM?

Yes. Or you can use basic tone reproduction compensation curves applied to the plate.

NDPC (CMY - only gray scale and K – only gray scale) is the standard of comparison for tone values?

I don't think there's enough printers using NDPC to make it any kind of standard. If you just want to compare tone values you can use a densitometer to measure them.

If you are using G7 methodology and you are printing to a standard like like ISO 12647-2, or to your own standard, then you can do the same with Staccato. Where you might have a problem is matching 1 or 2 color screen tints (e.g. 30%M + 20% C) to traditional AM/XM screening. E.g. Staccato 10 vs 175 lpi/69 lpcm. The color will not look the same if you make a direct side by side comparison. The Staccato will have more chroma than the AM/XM screen.

best, gordo

[Pavel_SPb]

I place a control strip FM (1-bit tiff) in a free space of AM press sheet. The control strip FM is the CMY-only gray (width - 5 mm) -- make it possible to see like any FM printed images. I think that tone values of the single cyan ink is not alike the cyan ink into any printed images. Cyan dots intercommunicate with other inks. It seems to me, TVI-curves – the detection method for the press (when the press have been made setting). CMY tone values is close to tone values of printed images. Can you say your opinion about it?

[Pavel_SPb]

... I look after FM (any control strips and the my gold sheet) about three months. A few times, I've got good FM-printed sheets too. I've got a few different curves for FM (???)... I look for the critetion -- what is it better? In such a way I come to NDPC (G7)...
thanks for answer...
Pavel

[gordo]

I place a control strip FM (1-bit tiff) in a free space of AM press sheet. The control strip FM is the CMY-only gray (width - 5 mm) -- make it possible to see like any FM printed images. I think that tone values of the single cyan ink is not alike the cyan ink into any printed images. Cyan dots intercommunicate with other inks. It seems to me, TVI-curves – the detection method for the press (when the press have been made setting). CMY tone values is close to tone values of printed images. Can you say your opinion about it?

It is hard to understand what you mean.
It is not good to mix FM with AM on the same press sheet. FM and AM have different ink/water balance needs. Can you take photographs of your cyan AM dots and your cyan FM dots?

best, gordo