Post By ondemandbindery
Equipment supplier warning
Hey everyone, I have used this forum for information and support for quite a while now, and would like to offer out a warning about a dealer we have had the misfortune of using twice now. If someone can let me know if that is ok or frowned upon, I would be happy to share my experience and the supplier to try to help others avoid the same problems.
Actually.. I will post the problems/story, and if people want to know to protect themselves I can post the dealers name.
A few years ago we bought a used Ryobi from this dealer. We were replacing an old Itek with its own numbering/perforating unit. We expressed to the dealer we wanted it to link up to the number/perf unit, as well it was important that it would run envelopes (our itek reached the age that it no longer would).. the dealer assured us all would work great. The installer came down and spent hours with the press.. got it working so we thought.. that did not last long.. over the next few weeks we spent thousands on someone to come fix piece by piece all the things that were wrong with it. Lots of which this person who is highly respected, said was installer issues.. some poor condition before shipped to us. Anyway.. two sides to a story always with something like that so we moved on.
Recently, we needed to move forward and install a bookletmaker/collator system. Took a little while to find one we were looking for, and one of our local suppliers was able to get a line on one.. this supplier we trust very much. We trust him enough to agree to the machine unseen. (We know this dealer well, and if anything was to arise, they would take care of it I know for sure) Price, delivery, all was agreed upon.. weeks later when it was supposed to arrive.. we had nothing. A deposit was already made.. so we spoke with our supplier.. who in turn spoke with the dealer it was coming from. We then found out it was the same dealer as before, and they said we apologize, we need to go to the show, and will send it right away when we get back after the weekend because we wanted to have a good look at the equipment before sending. I said ok fine, no problem.
Next week comes. now the dealer its coming from wants 100% payment down before they will even move it. I said hell no. Our supplier locally worked out whatever he had to, covered the cost probably. and they sent it down..Right away, the face trimmer wouldnt cut anything straight.. there were worn parts in it, belts that needed replacing and all the static strips inside of the collator are shot.
Thankfully our local supplier keeps sending down his maintenance man to keep fixing the bugs as they pop up, neither of us want anything to do with this dealer ever again if we can help it.. they are a nightmare and I would be happy to let people know to warn them if everyone sees fit to do so.
Either way, all issues to watch out for when buying a piece of equipment.. and it helps when you have people you trust helping to watch your back.
Ahhhh boy, this is an extremely strong topic. I will try to touch base on both sides of the tables as I have bought and sold equipment in just about all scenarios.
Keep in mind that used often means abused. And a refurbished machine can mean just enough parts and paint to get it out the door and let it become a nightmare for someone else. I took a bath on a folder when I started up and in my opinion never was able to capture the loss on it. I was extremely green on buying equipment at that point and was under pressure to get a folder in the shop and get things going. The Dealer read me like a book and didn't even apply the Vaseline. Consequently 5 years later and many checks wrote and that doesn't even include the lost time in production I only got Pennies on the dollar for it and that was just the icing on the cake. The best I could do is never recommend him and make sure he was thrown under the bus whenever possible. It had a cause and affect because another Broker that he was in bed with never got the opportunity to help me liquidate my shop as Birds of a Feather Flock together.
Now the flip side is I sold a Peripheral machine last summer and to the best of my knowledge it was rarely used and was in excellent shape. I bought it for a deal and sold it for a deal. A few weeks back I was told the Drive Motor went out and a couple of other things also and they would no longer would have any affiliation with me on equipment. I never had any ill intent and I don't do business like that but it happened and it was out of my control.
What I learned is this. Try to find the operator who ran something you are interested in buying and bypass anyone else. If you get a deal on something expect to put money into it. And most Brokers really have no clue about what they are selling and are all about second hand information.
Used equipment can be a double edged sword and in the right situation you can move forward but in the wrong situation you can go backwards and real fast....
You are correct that people dont really take care of their equipment very well.. I would never hold it against a dealer if something like a motor went.. its extremely difficult if possible at all to predict that kind of thing beyond the mileage of the machine..
but belts and static strips that are plain to see, and easy to fix is a no brainer. Our service guy doesn't even want to talk about them he's so frustrated from the stuff he comes across from these guys.
Which is why talking to an operator will give you some of the best feedback. Something else to look at it how the Pressroom looks. If they are doing a poor job of maintenance in the Pressroom I can assure you they are doing only minimal repairs and maintenance in the Bindery. What always helps if an operator is not available to speak with is find someone whether be it a technician or someone that knows the ins and outs of the machines. It is well money spent to get it evaluated.
I remember doing a demo for a company on a Muller Stitcher. I was the only who held the sales hat as I had ran it at some level from brand new. The potential buyers brought in a Muller Specialist and that was a great idea. He was very familiar with the quirks of the Stitcher and even though I put on a good show it was the thumbs up from that Specialist that got a check wrote for the machine.
Just be careful. The Brokers are steadily losing the pool of people to either purchase from or sell to. If they can make a buck and not worry about the end result then that is what they intend to do. I know of someone who recently went through a knife debacle he purchased. I don't know the end result but I know for me personally I would not trust them at any level.
As time goes on, I have lost my patience with this circumstance. As has my dealer, who's tech doesn't even want to talk about these guys, we had a 25,000 book run recently that was a nightmare. It was a 2 day job, that was also a rush and turned into over a week.
Once the dust settled our dealer's tech came in to look at what was going on, and a routine maintenance that normally should be done once a year or so on this machine, wasn't even looked at (among everything else) before sending it to us. A majority of the clutches to the feed bins were seized and not turning properly.
My dealer thankfully, who went over and above as he always does, spent 2 MORE days fixing wear and tear that should have been dealt with before it reached us.
My guy is local so it wont mean very much to anyone, but I will give praise where praise is due, and I am over being polite about the dealer the equipment came from and will name them as well to warn others.
Our supplier: GSE Graphic Supply and Equipment - they have been great and have stood behind anything we have gotten through them good or bad.
The Dealer: KBR Graphics Canada - this is my warning for others. This is not my first time dealing with them but it will be my last. If you read this and still buy from them I will suggest for your own sake that you have something in writing that normal wear and tear items would be checked and replaced as necessary before you get it.
Hopefully I save someone from some serious problems.
I have one MIS provider that has walked away from us after spending 10k, they have told me they would sue me if i speak about them, but i have got advice and no one can sue you for telling the truth!! if anyone has MIS issues, or are thinking about purchasing a new one or ganging modules please contact me and i will give you honest advice!
Equipment supplier warning is the best warning for those who have not care the equipment.