German Presses and Fogra

[UGS]

Not to sound too negative on the Fogra approved products, but they are more of a business approval than much beyond that point. Sure they are products that are tested and approved by the manufacturers not to do harm to OEM equipment, but beyond that they are a sales tool. The washes are approved mainly based on flashpoint and vapor pressure and the manufacturer needs to ensure that the wash isn't going to dryout the seals in the washup unit ect.

Chemical companies have to submit a wash for Fogra approval, and pay an annual fee to use that approval. This is much less costly than a Baldwin approved product. Baldwin charges a higher fee for their approvals. Also most of the press manufacturers are attempting to promote their own pressroom consumable programs to provide ongoing revenue streams for their company. KBA and Man Roland are two recent examples and have now made additional approved product list that go beyond Fogra approval. If you will notice almost all of these companies are european. Kinda funny huh?

Most major brands of wash and fountain solutions are just fine in your press. We sell both approved washes and then less expensive washes of which many are the same identical wash, but without the approval. You pay extra in the price of your wash for the Fogra or Baldwin approval. Hope this helps.

[keldrewett]

If a product is OK to use on any equipment there should be no cost for "special approval"
This doesn't happen in other industries only ours.....

[Green Printer]

It has been 18 months and no response or rebuttal.

I quess the matter stands as is.

[BacoUK]

It's a bit unfair to even suggest that H'berg, manroland and KBA are in any kind of cartel regarding pressroom chemicals. These are the three biggest manufacturers of printing presses in the world and sadly the US like the UK (my homeland) do not have products to compete against the German's. Anyone who watched what happened to their home motorcyle and / or the automobile industry is fully aware what German and Japanese engineery and quality is all about.

These companies simply make great presses (and may or may not sell chemicals under private label as a side-line) but there are a similar number of internationl chemical supplies Flint, Sun Chemical, Fuji and Huber spring to mind who also have a huge market share - but again that does not make them a cartel - as there are a number of other chemical manufactures who have Fogra approval - my company included.

Also there are dozens / hundreds of other suppliers around the world who make products of varying degress of quality who are not "approved", but probably could be if they were to join 'the Fogra club' or sourced the best surfactants and additives. The interesting thing is that China is now a major manufacturer - and will expand, just look at the CTP plate growth - and one of the first thing they ask from partners like us 'is it Fogra approved'?

Fogra is an idependent organisation so charges for the extensive testing it does on pressroom chemicals. I am sure there are products out there that could meet these standards, but some manufacturers / countries seem to have an strange isolationist attitude, as a result the biggest press companies say 'if it is not approved by Fogra, then we cannot guarantee it will not harm our presses so your warranty is invalidated'.

Let's be realistic, without this sort of threshold there would be all sorts of 'insurance' claims, and the press manufacturers do not have the time / money to test every jerry-can of liquid mixed in a bucket with a stick.

The 'problem' appears to be that the next group of press manufacturers from Japan, eg Komori, Ryobi, and Mitzi apprear to not want to 'play' the Fogra game, perhaps for nationalistic reason (?) but in the 'real world' we find that 'Fogra Approved' is what their technicians recommend.

With regards to Californian-style legislation it's 'no big deal' for the big international manufactures to meet those standards, they are obviously doing it, the 'problem' however for many companies is the high cost of insurance to cover all the what ifs in a very letigeous world.

[Francois]

All about making more money

[davenicho1]

Are you any clearer on your question yet as i see no one has replied?

Regards

Dave

[Francois]

You have to remember that FOGRA is a German based research institute that is well respected in Europe and beyond. It is therefore not a coincidence that European press manufacturers, particularly Heidelberg, manroland, and KBA support products based on FOGRA standards. There is no conspiracy of sort, rather a need to protect the manufactures against misused or misunderstood products. If printing companies had a professional chemist on staff, it would be a non issue since the person would probably qualify many other pressroom products based on merit and chemical properties. Since pressroom personnel is ignorant (etymologically speaking) to the fundamental properties of their products, they must relay on companies or institutions like FOGRA to tell them what is good or not. Of course they are a business too, and they have to make money in order to pay their techs and chemists. We sell pressroom products and feel safer selling them as a vendor because then products have a seal of approval that we could not otherwise provide.

Control Graphics USA |

[Green Printer]

You have to remember that FOGRA is a German based research institute that is well respected in Europe and beyond. It is therefore not a coincidence that European press manufacturers, particularly Heidelberg, manroland, and KBA support products based on FOGRA standards. There is no conspiracy of sort, rather a need to protect the manufactures against misused or misunderstood products. If printing companies had a professional chemist on staff, it would be a non issue since the person would probably qualify many other pressroom products based on merit and chemical properties. Since pressroom personnel is ignorant (etymologically speaking) to the fundamental properties of their products, they must relay on companies or institutions like FOGRA to tell them what is good or not. Of course they are a business too, and they have to make money in order to pay their techs and chemists. We sell pressroom products and feel safer selling them as a vendor because then products have a seal of approval that we could not otherwise provide.

Control Graphics USA |

The problem is misused and misunderstood with chemist that don't understand along with giving them the formula that they say they will keep secret. If you must tell the formula and then explain to the chemist how it works you have just given away your livelihood.
The press manufactures will give a waiver on some of the non-Forga approved chemistry. In some parts of the world new presses will not be bought without the waiver.
I have been using NON-FORGA certified products for over 20 years. Our shop is clean and my machinery did not dissolve into a pile of rusted bolts and liquid rubber. We meet or exceed every environmental regulation for the printing industry anywhere in the world.
It has been 4 years since this thread was started. Nothing has change except for those who have bought new presses and received the chemistry waiver.
With the waiver available it nullifies Fogra significance in press room chemistry and transforms it into a licensing fee.

[Green Printer]

Francois stated that printers are ignorant on the proper chemicals to use in printing and that Fogra testing and final approval by the machine manufacturer will protect us. Great, I have a question for printers that are following this discussion;

How many seals have you replaced on Technotrans fountain solution proportioning systems with Fogra approved fountain solutions?
How many seals have you replaced on Baldwin fountain solution proportioning systems with Fogra approved fountain solutions?
How many packaging printers have passed Headspace-GC-MS analysis for food, pharmaceutical, medical, and cosmetic packaging and label printing with Fogra approved chemicals?
How many packaging printers have passed Purge & Trap-Thermal Desorption-GC-MS analysis with Fogra approved chemicals?
How many packaging printers have passed Sensory evaluation with Fogra approved chemicals?
How many printers have passed Migration testing analysis with Fogra approved chemicals?
Now for the real question; So now we have a rejection for 2.5 million pie boxes and pie's, will Fogra be there to insist that their test criteria should be paramount to product health in packaging? Will Fogra be in court to insist they are the end of the line for knowledge served up in the Fogra-Grail of vast knowledge in print manufacturing? Bottom line is if it stinks, has regulated toxins (defined by U.S. laws), has VOC's and must be used on German equipment then the equipment manufacturers must have a clear warning: DO NOT PURCHASE THIS EQUIPMENT FOR FOOD, PHARMACEUTICAL, MEDICAL, OR COSMETIC PACKAGING OR LABEL PRINTING DUE TO EQUIPMENT CHEMICAL CERTIFICATIONS THAT MAY NOT PASS OR COMPLY WITH SAFETY AND HEALTH TESTING CRITERIA.
USE OF APPROVED FOGRA CHEMICALS COULD NEGATE A DEFENSIBLE POSITION IN A COURT OF LAW.
Problem solved, now we all know what we are purchasing.