Help gatering makeready data, please

[PDeuth]

I'm trying to derive an estimate of makeready costs. If you would, please, can you share any data you have on makeready? [*]How long in time does a makeready take before the press starts?[*]How much paper is run before an OK?[*]How much time and paper is spent "chasing color?"[*]If you could simply run "to the numbers" measured on a color bar, how much would be saved?
Please provide information of the type of press and sort of work you're referring to. I apprecaite any help with this. Thanks.

[CD102]

If you get answers to this, they are going to vary wildly depending on the type of work a shop does, the level of automation on the press, condition of the press, the standardization of the work you print, whether you use consistent color rotations, whether you do lots of specialty work, etc., etc., etc.

[michaelejahn]

I'm trying to derive an estimate of makeready costs. If you would, please, can you share any data you have on makeready?

I think this would vary widely - new job with lots of fleshtones, light browns and greys on coated with some brand manager breathing down you neck vs "Northgate Hospital Newsletter" on uncoated - well, it would vary widely. New work, vs re-print also is a consideration. are we speaking strictly CMYK ?

[*]How long in time does a makeready take before the press starts?

5 minutes to 2 hours (sometimes you need to go back to prepress and make correction s and make new plates !)

[*]How much paper is run before an OK?

100 - 1000 sheets x P factor ( P is for "persnickety-ness" )

[*]How much time and paper is spent "chasing color?"

Again, this varies widely - example - if you have your process control in place and use ink optimization, you hit your densities and run, as there is not a lot of ways to move the color. If you do not have your process control together, you may be chasing color throughout the entire press run.

[*]If you could simply run "to the numbers" measured on a color bar, how much would be saved?

Many people that have embraced the G7 method will attest that the time saved is significant. Many people who refuse to embrace process control will attest that it is all a bunch of silly color management nonsense.

Please provide information of the type of press and sort of work you're referring to. I apprecaite any help with this. Thanks.

State Street Consultants normally do exhaustive studies about questions like that and charge a lot for their reports. The data you gather will be hearsay, opinion and not really all that telling, as you are not collecting this information using any scientific method. Most printers would be hard pressed to even know what they are actually doing, never mind what they share is what will be what they THINK they are doing, which rarely - if ever - matches reality.

When I worked for AGFA, we asked customers how long they felt they spent - on average - correcting color, and asked what they felt what that actually cost. After doing time motion studies and studying what was spent on salaries, and then compared what was invoiced, most folks were startled. what they thought was 2 or three minutes were more like 10 or 12 minutes. The study was about helping people understand what it takes to get color right. The product was AGFA Intellitune.

Perhaps this will be an interesting thread, but to be honest, I have not met many press crew foremen here on the forum, nor many CFO's that would have studied waste.

Good luck, wish you the best, and will report back from my buddies Ian Reid and Jim Raffel on what they think if they have anything to offer for you.

[Jimbo]

I work at a shop that thinks you don't need any make ready. Had a two 4 over 4 jobs for 1250 finished pieces on 14 point board. I was given exactly 2500 sheets. 1250 for one and 1250 for the other. Thanks a lot shop...

[Disappointed]

I run a 52cm DI waterless press and can normally hit colour to ISO standard in 100-200 sheets, normal makeready is 50 sheets and fine tune on the fly.

[spigot]

I don't tune on the fly anymore, some customers have become very pedantic.
So a normal 4 colour job will be around 200-250 sheets. Sometimes backed up as well before i start. That way i am within .1 either way on the denso.
That way I have tuned out the larger/quicker variations and can catch smaller ones over the first 1000 sheets. Seems to work, its a little slower but any sheet pulled anytime will match the sign off spot on.

But as said it is totally dependent on the job. Some 4cp jobs take 75 sheets and are there. others take 500 to settle down in the finer areas (4c making grey, matchups, pms etc)
Thats on a Shinohara with ink profiles. 2006 model.

As for time on a 4col job some operators are around the 15 minute mark, some 20. I am satisfied if i can settle the press and have a trouble free run and it takes 25 mins to achieve.
Jobs will take as long as they take.
Some idiot manageers get all twisted up by an extra 10 minutes, but are nowhere to be found and very quiet when a reprint taking hours is needed.

[Luther]

I run a 40 inch Heidelberg CD 102 w/prepress interface...We usually get 100 sheets per color for MR and the standard run waste figures. We also get approx. 300 addn'l sheets for customer ok.
After ink up I just run 50 for register only but if needed rough color adjustments and damps. Next, 100 more to check for color adjustments and fine moves on register. Lastly, 100 more to confirm everything is cool. So, in 250 total sheets I can (most of the time) start saving sheets. All this would be for 4cp. coated or uncoated don't matter. This method seems to work great.
Timewise... from hanging plates to saving sheets, about 20 min to a half an hour. our shops benchmark for MR is about 8 minutes per unit.
Some of the more critical work I use addn'l waste sheets for setup, and more time...

[Erik Nikkanen]

I'm trying to derive an estimate of makeready costs. If you would, please, can you share any data you have on makeready? [*]How long in time does a makeready take before the press starts?[*]How much paper is run before an OK?[*]How much time and paper is spent "chasing color?"[*]If you could simply run "to the numbers" measured on a color bar, how much would be saved?
Please provide information of the type of press and sort of work you're referring to. I apprecaite any help with this. Thanks.

PDeuth,

This probably does not help your effort to gain actual data but if one would want to think in terms of the potential for offset, if the technology was changed a bit, then one should expect that the number of impressions would be less than 50 to get to density within the +/- 0.05 pts range. This would be for a small sheetfed press or a large web press.

People might find this hard to believe but there is a trend that one can look at. Over the years the amount of set up paper has dropped dramatically. This is not related to the fundamentals of the lithographic process but to the design of the equipment running the process.

Many technologies, although they don't address fundamental issues or don't work properly, still have improved the process. Some of these are roller train and fountain temperature control, ink key presetting, waterless, single form roller/anilox inkers, etc.

Look at the Anicolor press. Not my ideal concept for a press but it does show that a lithographic press can have very short makereadies of about 20 sheets and print evenly any where in the image and it still uses basically conventional ink and water.

The difference between the Anicolor press and conventional Heidelberg presses is that the Anicolor press has better control of the ink applied to the plate. That is what makes the difference. The Anicolor also gets to colour faster than the existing waterless presses. There is a reason for this and it is related to the design of the press and not that water is used or not used in the process.

So one could plot the history of all these improvements and see that there is a convergence down under the 50 sheets or less area. Getting to the right density quickly is related to the capability of controlling the ink to the plate in a consistent and predictable way and the amount of ink storage in the roller train.

Prepress is also critical to get the right colour at the target densities but prepress is also a bit of a mess. The design of the press affects the accuracy of the prepress process. Again Anicolor prints uniformly everywhere in the image while conventional presses do not. This makes for a more accurate profile for how the Anicolor will print and that provides more predictability.

Conventional presses don't really have a consistent profile because they don't print the same in every part of the image, so there will always be some need to make adjustments on press to try to match a proof. Some compromises will have to be made by the press operator.

All processes have variation but the amount of variation is directly related to the design capability of the equipment. Reduced variation below the level of concern or awareness can be designed into the technology. At this time there is no interest to do that even though most of the potential can be obtained are reasonable expense. There is just not yet a will to move in that direction.

[Al Ferrari]

PDeuth,

Prepress is also critical to get the right colour at the target densities but prepress is also a bit of a mess. The design of the press affects the accuracy of the prepress process.

Hello Erik,

Can you please amplify a bit on this. What do you mean by "prepress is also a bit of a mess", and "the design of the press affects the accuracy of the prepress process"?

Thanks,

Al

[Alois Senefelder]

Gentlemen,

A PDF - I hope you will find of interest, Makeready time for 4 Colour Roland circa 1961.

Error - Inkchange Time 90 minutes



Regards, Alois