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Thread: Image blinding/ Plate Weak

  1. #1
    pacificiam is offline Member
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    Default Image blinding/ Plate Weak

    Ohhh God!!!!

    Why this happen with me only.
    This sheetfed process giving me nightmare, as it asking lot of challenging question.
    Yet another mysterious problem in our press.
    I hope you people not gone kill me this time. But this sheedfed offset testing my knowledge and patience.
    Image blinding……….
    Problem looks so simple. Just change the plate and start the press.
    But hang on….
    Its not simple as it look. Let me explain….
    We have image blinding issue on cyan ink (after catching now image blinding) on particular area.
    But whenever we applied plate cleaner solution on plate star receiving the ink.
    But this problem gets solve for the particular set.
    Whenever we gives roller wash problem disappear for next 2-3 sets.
    Again could not figure out whom to blame CTP, press, ink, fountain or my luck.

    Need any sort of permanent solution and root cause…..

  2. #2
    Cornishpastythighs's Avatar
    Cornishpastythighs is offline Senior Member
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    Well if its only happening on the Cyan I would rule out the CTP. It doesnt know its making a cyan plate just that its making a plate! Unless of course your plate surface and your cyan ink have some form of incompatability issues. But you say its in a particular area so now we have cyan ink that only blinds in one area (pretty smart ink) Have you put the cyan ink in another print unit to eliminate the unit?
    pacificiam likes this.

  3. #3
    D Ink Man is offline Senior Member
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    I believe it goes back to the cyan image normally having the least take off and also for sure in a K-C-M-Y rotation, the thinnest film.

    There are surely multiple ways to fix the problem, but being D Ink Man, I will recommend an ink fix. Tell your Inkmaker to add .20-.25% of dry sequestering agent. He may have to do a bit of leg work to find the material, but it simply without fail eliminates plate blinding, no matter the cause.

    As note, magenta is the most usual culprit for plate blinding somewhat due to its alkaline nature.

    But try the sequestering agent. It is a dry crystal like powder that can be easily incorporated into an ink formula during the manufacturing process.

    I wish you luck to get the service you need from the Inky. Truly a potluck, as has been well documented throughout the ledgers.

    D

  4. #4
    Green Printer is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Ink Man View Post
    I believe it goes back to the cyan image normally having the least take off and also for sure in a K-C-M-Y rotation, the thinnest film.

    There are surely multiple ways to fix the problem, but being D Ink Man, I will recommend an ink fix. Tell your Inkmaker to add .20-.25% of dry sequestering agent. He may have to do a bit of leg work to find the material, but it simply without fail eliminates plate blinding, no matter the cause.

    As note, magenta is the most usual culprit for plate blinding somewhat due to its alkaline nature.

    But try the sequestering agent. It is a dry crystal like powder that can be easily incorporated into an ink formula during the manufacturing process.

    I wish you luck to get the service you need from the Inky. Truly a potluck, as has been well documented throughout the ledgers.

    D
    D Inkman of the following sequestering agents are there any that you would recommend?

    These are some main types of commercial sequestering agents:


    Aminocarboxylic acid base products
    Phosphates and Phosphonates
    Hydroxy carbroxylates
    Polyacrylates
    Sugar acrylates

    1.Aminolycarboxylates
    In aminopolycarboxylates, it is assumed that one molecule of sequestering agent complexes with one ion of metal. Depending upon the pH of the medium, i e acidic, neutral or alkaline, the preferential sequestering order or each product could change.

    Some of the characteristics of some of these sequestering agents are summarised as below:

    EDTA: Good sequestering agent for calcium and magnesium at alkaline pH but no sequestering agents on Fe3+ at alkaline pH. Not stable with oxidising agents. Low solubility in acidic medium.

    NTA: Sequestering of Fe3+ only at acidic pH but sequestering of Cu2+ between pH 3 to 12. Low solubility in acidic medium. Not stable with oxidising agents.

    DTPA: Good sequestering action Fe3+ under alkaline pH but complexes with alkaline earth salts are less stable than EDTA. slightly more resistant to oxidising agents. Low solubility in acidic medium.

    2.Phosphates and Phosphonates
    These sequestering agents are divided in two broad classes:
    Inorganic polyphosphates such as sodium hexameta phosphate (SHMP), sodium polyphosphate, sodium tripolyphosphate, sodium trimeta phosphate, sodium pyrophosphates
    Phosphonated aminopolycarboxylates such as EDTMP, DETMP, ATMP, HEDP, DTPMP

    Inorganic phosphates work under specific conditions and work as sequestering agents by converting troublesome metal ions into water soluble complex by a process of ion exchange.

    Phosphates of aminopolycarboxylic acids or phosphonates are derivatives of phosphorous acid and are characterised by a C-P bond, which has stronger hydrolytic stability than the P-O-P bond of polyphosphates. This type of sequestering agent has emerged as a major class of sequestering agent, since these possess more features than mere chelation. These characteristics are:
    Threshold effect, i e inhibition of precipitation of CaCO3, CaSo4 with sub-stiochiometric quantities of inhibitor
    Corrosion inhibition
    Resistance to hydrolysis
    Deflocculation i.e. stability effect on colloidal suspensions
    Compared to popular amino polycarhoxylic acid based sequestering agents, these phosphonates based sequestering agents have a high chelation ratio. Apart from better chelation value or better chelation ratio, these phosphonates also have better iron chelation than EDTA and NTA.

    3.Hydroxy Carboxylic Acids
    Organic compounds that have several hydroxylic groups often have the property of preventing precipitation of bi and trivalent metal cationis in an alkaline medium. Some of the well known products in this category are:

    Citric acid, Tartaric acid, Gluconic acid and Oxalic acid.

    These are less important sequestering agents, compared to aminocarboxylic acid or phosphonates. Gluconic acid/sodium gluconate has been found to be an effective chelating agent for iron under alkaline conditions.

    4.Polyacrylates
    Polyacrylates are effective dispersants, with mild chelation values and protective colloid properties. The chelation values of polyacrylates have no demetallising effect on metal containing dyestuffs. They are completely non foaming.

    They are very suitable as dyebath conditioners, soaping agents and washing aids. Being non surface active agents they are easily rinsable and thus reduce the quantity of water required for removing their traces from the substrates, unlike all surfactants. The typical chelation values offered by polyacrylates do not come close to the chelation values offered by amino polycarboxylates or the phosphonates. This problem has been overcome by development of sugar acrylates.

    5.Sugar Acrylates
    Sugar acrylates have sequestering values as high as amino polycarboxylates or the phosphonates. They are biodegradable, effective components in cellulosic fabric pretreatment during desizing, scouring, bleaching and mercerising. These products are characteristed by good chelation values from the acidic to the alkaline range and from temperatures of 45 to 115øC. They also exhibit no demetalising effect on metal-containing dyestuffs and are non-foaming. They are ideally recommended in pretreatment for desizing, scouring and bleaching and as dyebath conditioners during the cellulosic dyeing.

    Factors to be taken into consideration while selecting a sequestering agent for the process :

    1. Stability Constant:
    As chelation is a reversible reaction, the equilibrium is dependent on the process pH and the concentration of the metal ions and chelating agent, which react together to form a chelate. The stability of the metal complex is expressed in terms of its stability constant. If we represent chelation of metal ion, Mm+ with sequestering agent, An- as: Mm+ + An- MA(m-n) then the stability constant is Ks = MA (m-n) (Mm+) (An-)

    A high value of Ks indicates high sequestering effect. For example, in the case of aminopolycarboxylates, the stability constant for same metal iron increases in the order NTA, EDTA, DTPA.

    In the case of metal ions, the stability constant increases in the order.

    From the above information it can be deduced that the NTA-Mg2+ complex has the least stability, whereas DTPA - Fe3+ has the highest stability. Thus, in a process, if more than one metal ion is present, the metal ion having the highest stability will be chelated preferentially. If chelating agent is present in sufficient quantity, the metal with the highest stability constant will be chelated completely, followed by the next metal ion in te order given above. Even after chelation is complete in this order, if additional metal impurity, with metal having a higher stability constant, is introduced, then this metal ion will displace low stability constant metal ions from the complex. For example, Fe3+ displaces Ca2+ from a Ca2+ chelating agent complex. Of course, the chelating agent should be capable of chelating Fe3+ under given conditions.

    2. The pH of the Process:
    The pH of the system will influence the formation of the chelation complex. For example, NTA, EDTA cannot chelate Fe3+ under alkaline conditions, whereas DTPA can. HEDP can chelate Fe3+ up to pH 12, and so also gluconic acid.

    3. Demetalisation:
    This property is particularly important for dyeing and printing with premetallised dyes - for example, some direct, reactive and premetallised metal complex dyes. If Ni2+, Cu2+, Cr3+, Co2+ or Fe3+ is present in premetallised dyes, these could be preferentially chelated ahead of Ca2+ and Mg2+, due to the higher stability constant of these metal ions. Therefore pretrials in the lab are required to establish the suitability of the chelating agent, and also to arrive at the optimum concentration for the given process, when premetallised dyes are to be used.

    4. Other Features:
    Stability of chelate to prolonged process periods, dispersing properties, crystal-growth inhibition, effect on equipment, etc. are also to be considered when selecting a commercial sequestering agent.
    Last edited by Green Printer; 04-23-2013 at 07:38 AM.

  5. #5
    D Ink Man is offline Senior Member
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    1.Aminolycarboxylates
    EDTA

  6. #6
    pacificiam is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornishpastythighs View Post
    Well if its only happening on the Cyan I would rule out the CTP. It doesnt know its making a cyan plate just that its making a plate! Unless of course your plate surface and your cyan ink have some form of incompatability issues. But you say its in a particular area so now we have cyan ink that only blinds in one area (pretty smart ink) Have you put the cyan ink in another print unit to eliminate the unit?
    Yes We did.....
    But It wont work...

  7. #7
    Kaoticor's Avatar
    Kaoticor is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacificiam View Post
    Yes We did.....
    But It wont work...
    If Cyan doesn't work in another unit then that is good info.
    Have you tried using a different batch of ink? Go to your ink stock and look for a different batch and throw it in there. It's an easy thing to do if you have a little stock of ink sitting around.

  8. #8
    pacificiam is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoticor View Post
    If Cyan doesn't work in another unit then that is good info.
    Have you tried using a different batch of ink? Go to your ink stock and look for a different batch and throw it in there. It's an easy thing to do if you have a little stock of ink sitting around.
    I used 2 different batches of ink but problem not solved...

  9. #9
    Cornishpastythighs's Avatar
    Cornishpastythighs is offline Senior Member
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    So, you have tried different batches of ink from the same supplier and put the cyan ink into another unit that was previously printing fine with another colour in it and the Cyan still doesnt print. Have you tried ink from a completely different supplier yet? not just different batches from the same supplier.

  10. #10
    macphenom is offline Senior Member
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    When was the last time you did a calcium wash on that unit?
    RGPW17100 likes this.


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