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  • CMI and/or DocuSP for iGen 3

    Hi all

    I was just wondering if there is anyone on the list who is running either (or both) of the following on iGen3:

    - Xerox DocuSP
    - CMI

    I would be really interested to see how people have found using either of these products in the real world on live jobs? The new DocuSP comming out with FreeFlow 6 is really impressive from what ive seen in the labs, and I can say I was eating my hat with the quality it managed to produce. Part of me wonders how much of this was lab config, and how people manage with them on a day-to-day replacement to the Spire? Quality wise, its RIPing at 600dpi (it can also do 300dpi), so things like graduations are far smoother and really look rather nice compared to what we are used to on the spire.

    Also, if anyone is using CMI, I would be really interested to hear yours thoughts and comments

    Cheers everyone

    Tim

  • #2
    Re: CMI and/or DocuSP for iGen 3

    Hey Tim,

    We've used DocuSP since Jan 07 with 2 Docucolour 7000's. We've got 1 running v5.1 and the other v6.0 (in an atempt to fix the below). In my opinion, in contrast to the Creo Spire RIPs we've used in the past, the DSPs are a poor alternative. Especially if your using variable data. Process to print times are significantly longer, running into hrs if sending large chunks of data (lots of records). My take is that Optimised Postscript is an inferior VI file format compared to Creo's VPS.

    That's not the only thing either, I could go on....

    We're switching back to Creo's. I can't understand how a company such as Xerox, with its resource, RD and heritage, can realese such a poor RIP to run its own machines. We gave them a go in view of Kodak now owning Creo with a possible conflict of interests but I honestly say, after 9 months, using a Creo (we still have 1 running an old 2060) is a breath of fresh air!

    CMI I've no experience of.... what is it? Can you eleaborate on yet another acronym ;D Is it another Content Management System alternative?

    Cheerio

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: CMI and/or DocuSP for iGen 3

      Hey David

      I recently went to Xerox labs to play around with colour/performance on the brand new FreeFlow 6 beta, and I was really rather impressed with it which was why I possed this question I guess to see what real world experience people were having. The colour and graduated tone that it produced on my sample artwork was vastly superiour to what the spire was outputing on the iGen; much more consistant on the whole.

      I agree with you, VPS is vastly superior to PS for VDP work. To combat the VPS used on the Creo, Xerox are using PPML and VIPP for the VDP architecture in FreeFlow 6, and I am yet to have the RIP times on this tested. Personally, I have run into quite a number of problems with VPS, and have found it to be no where near as robust as the PPML/VDX format used on Kodak equipment for instance, which is why i started evaluating the other front ends out there for iGen. VIPP however does seem like a bit of a backward step, as VDX is a comunity standard and something i would love to see the vendors try to agree upon.

      My main gripe with VPS is the fact that you can only preview the file on-rip; where as with VDX you could preview the whole file in acrobat before you sent it over to be printed. There is something unsettling about working blind like that; in a year you have got to wonder how many sheets you could have saved by being 100% sure what you were sending to press was present and correct

      What version of DocuSP are you on at the moment?

      Your right, no doubt Xerox see the long term viability of using what is ultimately a kodak owned product on there presses to be some what questionablie, but I guess only time will tell on that one!!

      CMI is a colour managment system for digital workflow. Again I think its a part of FreeFlow 6 (dont qoute me on that one), but Xerox claim it makes managing the colour over multiple presses far far easier. I am due to catch up with the guys from Xerox/CMI soon, so i'll know a bit more about it then.

      Cheers

      Tim

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: CMI and/or DocuSP for iGen 3

        Hey Tim,

        From what I hear from visiting Xerox engineers it's the iGen itself that stuggles with flat tints or graduations rather than what the RIP streams down to it. AFAIK there isn't an iGen in the London area that runs a DocuSP in fact we're one of the few graphic arts sites that has/does run them.

        I've been keeping a eye on PPML for a while now. Ever since we we're looking at developing our own Web-to-Print solution. PPML has got VPS roots:

        PPML origins: "PPML 1.0 grew out a combined proposal approved in July 1999 by the PPML Working Group. This proposal was a merger of proposals from Scitex, Barco and Pageflex: Scitex, by way of its VPS language, contributed the foundation for the basic object model, object-level granularity, and job structure of PPML; Barco contributed the foundation for the production-centric parts of the specification, including major work on imposition; PageFlex contributed the original proposal for an XML-based language called PPML. NexPress contributed substantial work from its proposed vPDF specification, and Xerox presented additional information at the July conference based on its substantial experience with its VIPP PostScript-based variable data software..."
        [http://xml.coverpages.org/ppml.html]

        Scitex became Creo and used to be the big boys of RIPs back in the day, tho you probably know that

        Also, PPML is an open-standard (as is VIPP apparently)

        VPS is solid in my experiance, much better than the optimised postscript we're forced to use with the DSP. We use Creo's Darwin app to produce the work, what tool's do you use to create your VI?

        Here's us on the Creo web site:
        [http://www.creopod.com/data/Products...er_lodge.aspx]

        Preview - depends on your app, Darwin gives you an on-screen preview. Also depends on your workflow. If you send a few sample records as a test, always wise to check impo etc, then this ensures everything will print OK. Then you know its cool to let the floodgates open...

        We've got 2 DSPs; 1with v5.1 and 1 with the latest (beta) v6.

        The likelyhood of Creo RIPs not being shipped with Xerox kit is slim to none, but you never know!

        CMI - Ah, colour management. <rant> What a load of baloney that is. Just let 10% cyan be 10% cyan! </end rant>


        Comment


        • #5
          Re: CMI and/or DocuSP for iGen 3

          {quote:title=peady wrote:}
          From what I hear from visiting Xerox engineers it's the iGen itself that stuggles with flat tints or graduations rather than what the RIP streams down to it. AFAIK there isn't an iGen in the London area that runs a DocuSP in fact we're one of the few graphic arts sites that has/does run them.
          {quote}

          Im not so sure thats the case to be honest. All the machines are much of a muchness now (iGen, Nexpress, Indigo), and the real differentiator is front end functionality/performance (no doubt someone will pull me up on such a comment, but broadly speaking its true; whilst they all have established market sectors with slight printing preferences). Whilst thats only true to the point of having good files to put into any given workflow (i.e. junk in junk out) RIPing at 600dpi on the DSP was a significant improvement on my test files (where corporate branding was so so important), and running on the creo (on the same lab press), both tone and graduation were much better than the creo, even when spire was running with 'high-quality' settings. I then got talking to the techies in the labs at welwyn, who would only comment on the creo's poor performance as being "a feature"!! Its something to do with an internal lossy compression that spire uses in-rip.

          For sure, PPML is a open-standard, but like all open-standard (*cough, JDF*) people tend to vear of into very strange directions with them! Which is why we now have (to give it is full name) PPML/VDX etc etc. Lord only knows why people dont stick to standards, its what there here for

          When you talk about being "forced to use optimized PS", is that the case as darwin can only output VPS and PS due to creo being the vendor? Darwin does give you on screen pre-views your right, but it is unfortunately a windows only product, and wont ever be ported to mac - which i find a bit bizarre, as the graphic arts industry has grown up with macintosh and a lot of houses are heavily into apple gear so you would have thought they would try to remain platform neutral.

          {quote:title=peady wrote:}
          I've been keeping a eye on PPML for a while now. Ever since we we're looking at developing our own Web-to-Print solution. PPML has got VPS roots:
          {quote}

          Not that im going to push my own services on this forum as thats not really what its for, but here goes anyway: W2P is something ive been involved in for a long time and if you were interested in having a chat about it some time I would be delighted too

          {quote:title=peady wrote:}
          CMI - Ah, colour management. <rant> What a load of baloney that is. Just let 10% cyan be 10% cyan! </end rant>
          {quote}

          Color management is like IT in someways, people know they need it, but there not 100% sure why! I used to work for a very large graphic printer where we did a lot of fine art work and high-end premium work, and, whilst CM does have a bit of a rep for being a load of old boots, having solid profiling and press calibration made a world of difference to the final output. It really is fascinating stuff (for geeks like me)!

          {quote:title=peady wrote:}
          what tool's do you use to create your VI?
          {quote}

          Mainly I use XMPie. I have been using it for a long time now and done some very nice things with it. We were building systems 3.5 years ago with xmpie that would still give the most 'cutting edge' things a run for their money. To clarify, I dont work for xmpie, and am in no way affiliated to them; they just have a blindingly good product on there hands I tend to use it as a backend tool and build very bespoke front ends and with tight system/workflow integration.

          Best,

          Tim

          PS: Thanks for making this a stimulating thread of conversation

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: CMI and/or DocuSP for iGen 3

            > {quote:title=tim_perrett wrote:}{quote}
            >
            > Im not so sure thats the case to be honest. All the machines are much of a muchness now (iGen, Nexpress, Indigo), and the real differentiator is front end functionality/performance (no doubt someone will pull me up on such a comment, but broadly speaking its true; whilst they all have established market sectors with slight printing preferences)

            Mmmm, not sure about that either. iGen uses toner whereas Indigo a liquid ink, don't know about the Nexpress except the bumpf mentions a "Wax-based dry ink materials"

            >Whilst thats only true to the point of having good files to put into any given workflow (i.e. junk in junk out)

            Agreed

            >RIPing at 600dpi on the DSP was a significant improvement on my test files (where corporate branding was so so important), and running on the creo (on the same lab press), both tone and graduation were much better than the creo, even when spire was running with 'high-quality' settings. I then got talking to the techies in the labs at welwyn, who would only comment on the creo's poor performance as being "a feature"!! Its something to do with an internal lossy compression that spire uses in-rip.

            Generally I don't find playing with the RIPs buttons helps much. More a case of your previous point.

            > When you talk about being "forced to use optimized PS", is that the case as darwin can only output VPS and PS due to creo being the vendor?

            No, it'll spit out VIPP too but you have to buy a software licence for that! Site says it'll handle PPML too but blowed if I can find anything even mentioning it in the manual or in the app itself.

            >Darwin does give you on screen pre-views your right, but it is unfortunately a windows only product, and wont ever be ported to mac - which i find a bit bizarre, as the graphic arts industry has grown up with macintosh and a lot of houses are heavily into apple gear so you would have thought they would try to remain platform neutral.

            Very wrong there my old china cos we're running Darwin on Macs and have been for 5 years (v.mac biased me )
            http://graphics1.kodak.com/uk/produc...in/default.htm
            &
            http://www.creopod.com/data/Products...0tool/pro.aspx


            > Not that im going to push my own services on this forum as thats not really what its for, but here goes anyway: W2P is something ive been involved in for a long time and if you were interested in having a chat about it some time I would be delighted too

            Granted, just said it came to our attention when investigating a Web2Print solution. We currently use iWay (now Freeflow Web Services) and are considering upgrading or even switching to a different product. I'll be asking the question v.soon on the Web-enabled section of this here site so we can 'chat' about it there, eh?

            > Color management is like IT in someways, people know they need it, but there not 100% sure why! I used to work for a very large graphic printer where we did a lot of fine art work and high-end premium work, and, whilst CM does have a bit of a rep for being a load of old boots, having solid profiling and press calibration made a world of difference to the final output. It really is fascinating stuff (for geeks like me)!

            I'll take your word for it.

            > Mainly I use XMPie. I have been using it for a long time now and done some very nice things with it. We were building systems 3.5 years ago with xmpie that would still give the most 'cutting edge' things a run for their money. To clarify, I dont work for xmpie, and am in no way affiliated to them; they just have a blindingly good product on there hands I tend to use it as a backend tool and build very bespoke front ends and with tight system/workflow integration.

            Nice, but expensive....?

            > PS: Thanks for making this a stimulating thread of conversation

            Pleasure.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: CMI and/or DocuSP for iGen 3

              > Mmmm, not sure about that either. iGen uses toner whereas Indigo a liquid ink, don't know about the Nexpress except the bumpf mentions a "Wax-based dry ink materials"

              Its practically the same as iGen, its dry power type ink.

              > Generally I don't find playing with the RIPs buttons helps much. More a case of your previous point.

              We'll have to agree to disagree on that one

              > Very wrong there my old china cos we're running Darwin on Macs and have been for 5 years (v.mac biased me )
              > http://graphics1.kodak.com/uk/produc...in/default.htm

              Doh, im thinking of VI toolbox! Sorry - how embarrassing!

              > Nice, but expensive....?

              Not really to be honest. For print alone (so thats minus the x-media bells and whistles) you can get into a server version of uProduce from around the 14K mark I do believe, plus probably a few grand for a meaty server to host it on. Like of a lot of sold solutions they have the sort of model where its the extras that cost money, and you build it up as you want it.

              I wonder about the PPML issue you mentioned (in that fact you could find no reference to it on rip), are Xerox no help on that front? Im pretty sure they said it could process PPML??

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: CMI and/or DocuSP for iGen 3

                Hei Tim

                I have an question about XMPie and the Creo rip. I have just bought the uProduce server, after using uDirect for a couple of years.
                I have problems with Creo rip to rip Optimized PDF an VPS files. It looks like it rips PDF better than VPS to.

                Do you use VPS or PPML?

                I am also wondering to move over to DocuSp if its faster on variabledata printing, because we have som big jobs that take a lot of time to rip. Every seconds count.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: CMI and/or DocuSP for iGen 3

                  Hey Ken

                  Good to hear your using uProduce - its a great product

                  If your running Creo Spire on the front of iGen, then VPS will be vastly quicker than PDF any day of the week. On the whole VPS is a good format and you shouldnt run into too many difficulties when using it. Could you be more explicit about the problems you have encountered and I might be able to help?

                  The RIP architecture of Spire currently does not allow for PPML through put; we discussed it above as the DocuSP product uses it (along with VIPP, which uProduce can also output) rather than using VPS (which is Spire specific). DocuSP can be very fast with PDF throughput as it uses a technology xerox call PPR, in which they use the multi-processor architecture or SPARC/x86 servers on which it runs, to concurrently work on the same job... the result is lower PDF RIP time. This does not however mean that PDF is a adequete format for VDP work when using DocuSP. VIPP or PPML are the way to go for running VDP jobs on that RIP.

                  I am back in the labs in a couple of weeks at Xerox running PPML performance testing, so i'll post back more on that when I have it. I shall also be testing colour profiling conherence vs Spire in that session.

                  Agreed - lowering RIP times help everyone in the workflow

                  Cheers

                  Tim

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: CMI and/or DocuSP for iGen 3

                    Hi Tim

                    The problems I had was a easy job, except for the amount of data. It was simple maps A3 jpg files. When printing VPS, the rip manage to rip files of about 19 pages. When generating PDF i was able to print 50 pages, or the rip just failed with no error.

                    I know that the rip has a limit of file size. 2Gb or something. The size of the jpg`s was from 1 to 5mb comprimated. There was not a lot of information in them, mostly white, and some strokes in different colours. The best had to get the files as EPS, but the customer could only export jpg.

                    The rip time for 4500 images was about 10 hours. XMPie used about 3-4 minutes on 50 pages to produce PDF. There was nothing else on the pages ecxept for the picture.

                    The only error i got on the rip was: failed. Creo does not have any god feedback on errors. Probably the riped image file exceeds 2 gb.... Thats the only reasons i can see....

                    We also have iWay and Process manager. The link between Process Manager and Docu Sp is also interesting. I also looks after more automatic in the workflow. Less human handling, will increase the revenue. Because we will get less errrors and less money to expensiv staff.

                    Do you have any experience with the e-mail and web functions in XMPie Tim?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: CMI and/or DocuSP for iGen 3

                      > The problems I had was a easy job, except for the amount of data. It was simple maps A3 jpg files. When printing VPS, the rip manage to rip files of about 19 pages. When generating PDF i was able to print 50 pages, or the rip just failed with no error.
                      >
                      > I know that the rip has a limit of file size. 2Gb or something. The size of the jpg`s was from 1 to 5mb comprimated. There was not a lot of information in them, mostly white, and some strokes in different colours. The best had to get the files as EPS, but the customer could only export jpg.
                      >
                      > The rip time for 4500 images was about 10 hours. XMPie used about 3-4 minutes on 50 pages to produce PDF. There was nothing else on the pages ecxept for the picture.
                      >
                      > The only error i got on the rip was: failed. Creo does not have any god feedback on errors. Probably the riped image file exceeds 2 gb.... Thats the only reasons i can see....

                      Ive seen problems on the Creo before with JPEG images. I once had a problem where images were randomly droping out of my VPS file during the RIP - one of the bunch of reasons im not 100% happy with VPS on iGen (compared to VDX on Nexpress for instance)

                      In general I would recomend you avoid using Jpeg images full stop. I have tried to totally bin them from my workflows where possible. Perhaps you could try a batch render in photoshop to convert your images into binary EPS or TIFF? Furthermore, if your files are taking that long to RIP, PDF cannot be a viable option... you might also get some savings by ensuring that all your imagery is at 100% PPI, meaning there should then be no extraneous data in the output file.

                      > We also have iWay and Process manager. The link between Process Manager and Docu Sp is also interesting. I also looks after more automatic in the workflow. Less human handling, will increase the revenue. Because we will get less errrors and less money to expensiv staff.
                      >

                      Perhaps a full Xerox solution might suit you better then in that case. Have you any other elements of the FreeFlow workflow systems?

                      > Do you have any experience with the e-mail and web functions in XMPie Tim?

                      For sure - ive done some big x-media campaigns with print/email/web. Actually as I write this im working on a project which SMS's recipients as well - pretty funky! Sending email from xmpie can only be done programatically via the ICP ports, not sure if you know that? How are you getting on with xmpie so far? Its quite a change from uDirect isnt it

                      Cheers

                      Tim

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: CMI and/or DocuSP for iGen 3

                        Hi Tim

                        I have noticed that JPG`s give me some problems. PDF from iWay with jpg pictures, and uses and own output profile on the Creo. Gives me pixels in the light area, This is a problem Creo nows about, for at least two years. But they still havent got any fix for this problem. I hope the have fixed it in the new version, that i havent testet yet.

                        When using Tiff instead og JPG in vps files, vil they increase a lot in size?

                        We have also increased our amount of memory in the rip, to 1024mb ram. It increased the speed a litle.

                        We havent convertet iWay to Xerox FreeFlow yet. I`m not sure if that a smart thing to do yet, since the Manager module is still beta after my opinion and Xerox uses about 2-6 months to release updates after Press Sense. So we have only FreeFlow ProcessManager. We will get the newest version today. Hopefuly it will work better than the version vi have now. The ideas behind the software is excellent, but the user interface need to be upgraded.

                        I havent run any big campaigns yet. The server was installed in july, and i havent had the time to have a deeper look at it. Just produced a couple of ordinary jobs.
                        I have plans to test the e-mail and web functions soon. I just need the time too look in the manual how it is done. There is just to installations i Norway, so I have to get the training fro XMPie.

                        It was not to difficulty to start using it, since i had used uPlan and uDirect profesional before. Now i just need to learn to use the Qlingo language and other databases than excel

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: CMI and/or DocuSP for iGen 3

                          > When using Tiff instead og JPG in vps files, vil they increase a lot in size?

                          It will increase the size - try using a binary EPS? Irrespective of file size, there are known problems with JPEG on the creo, so in order to try and find the problem its probally a good idea to eliminate that as a possible factor Have you explored the failing to RIP problem with creo R&D at all? I cant stress how important it is to use a proper VI format, otherwise as you have been encountering its just so unmanagable to print files that take 10hours to RIP. Also, how are you processing the files out of xmpie? All in one output file? split batches? If you can give specifics I can probally help.

                          > We have also increased our amount of memory in the rip, to 1024mb ram. It increased the speed a litle.

                          1GB of RAM is not really a lot for a RIP - I have 4GB sat here in my desktop computer!!. I would suggest you upgrade that ASAP if you only have 1GB of ram in the machine. I would be surprised if it shipped like that... are you sure thats the correct figure? Are you running creo on the front end of an iGen or is it another xerox press?


                          > We havent convertet iWay to Xerox FreeFlow yet. I`m not sure if that a smart thing to do yet, since the Manager module is still beta after my opinion and Xerox uses about 2-6 months to release updates after Press Sense. So we have only FreeFlow ProcessManager. We will get the newest version today. Hopefuly it will work better than the version vi have now. The ideas behind the software is excellent, but the user interface need to be upgraded.


                          Agreed - the GUI for the freeflow products so far has not been the best. The new version promises to be a lot more "creo'esq", so things should be greatly improved. Ive seen it in the labs and it looks to be a vast improvement. I cant say im overlly familiar with ProcessManager so I cant unfortunatly comment on the particulars of that product.


                          > I havent run any big campaigns yet. The server was installed in july, and i havent had the time to have a deeper look at it. Just produced a couple of ordinary jobs.
                          > I have plans to test the e-mail and web functions soon. I just need the time too look in the manual how it is done. There is just to installations i Norway, so I have to get the training fro XMPie.

                          Cool! Well version 4 is comming out at GraphExpo, and looks to be a pretty good release for those guys, with new functionality and so on.

                          > It was not to difficulty to start using it, since i had used uPlan and uDirect profesional before. Now i just need to learn to use the Qlingo language and other databases than excel

                          For sure The main benifit is workflow intergration that you can achive programatically. Its possible to build some really really nice intergratted solutions with the API set... its just such a huge API - the last consumer I wrote totally around 44,000 lines of code, so its pretty heavy duty as far as APIs go!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: CMI and/or DocuSP for iGen 3

                            I havent tried to use EPS from photoshop yet. I will try it in my next campaign I will produce this or next week. It`s a quite simple job. Just an image with text in uImage and tekst on the other side.

                            The file that used 10 hours was printet in batches of 50 pages. Was it more than that, the Rip failed asap. With now errors of course. I miss the old PS errors like offending command. That I always could fin out of and fix.....
                            Right now i just have the PDF output, i think I order the VPS tomorrow. If I`m going to change later I just buy another output format....

                            The Creo for iGen3 comes with 512mb. I have talk to Xerox and they have talkt with the people at Creo and they says that 512mb of memory is more than enough. Since the Creo uses theyer own card to process files. But that doesnt make any sensce for me. They doesnt support upgrades either. I bought new ram, 2x1gb. But the rip didnt support it. More data needs more memory and faster disk to process. So i`m not impressed....

                            I have used Creo Rips for about seven years, and i think that all of them had 512mb ram.

                            I have read about the APIS module for XMPie, its really interesting. I think I will need it in the future, and integrate it with iWay. I think that will be an powerfull and easy to use solution for my customers.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: CMI and/or DocuSP for iGen 3

                              > {quote:title=ken@reprostudio.no wrote:}{quote}
                              > I havent tried to use EPS from photoshop yet. I will try it in my next campaign I will produce this or next week. It`s a quite simple job. Just an image with text in uImage and tekst on the other side.

                              Ah!! you never said it was a job that used uImage. Thats more than likley where the problem is...

                              When you run an ordinary VI job on RIP, it caches the things that are common in order to save time/space of processing. However, when you are doing uImage jobs, as every file that you output is different, the RIP sees it as being a tottaly different file, so there is no way of cacheing that as each image is different. This is one of the major problems with using personalised imagery in documents. You would still see an element of uplift in processing time using VPS, but the files would still be pretty big and take a while to RIP (but not 10 hours I shouldnt have thought!)

                              What size are the output files? Both split and in total? The RIP is choking on something somewhere along the line.


                              > The file that used 10 hours was printet in batches of 50 pages. Was it more than that, the Rip failed asap. With now errors of course. I miss the old PS errors like offending command. That I always could fin out of and fix.....
                              > Right now i just have the PDF output, i think I order the VPS tomorrow. If I`m going to change later I just buy another output format....

                              That would be highly recomended!

                              > The Creo for iGen3 comes with 512mb. I have talk to Xerox and they have talkt with the people at Creo and they says that 512mb of memory is more than enough. Since the Creo uses theyer own card to process files. But that doesnt make any sensce for me. They doesnt support upgrades either. I bought new ram, 2x1gb. But the rip didnt support it. More data needs more memory and faster disk to process. So i`m not impressed....

                              Hmm i find that a bit strange also. I'll check on that too. Creo R&D are usually quite good, so if thats what there saying then its probally right. Its obviously a different architecture to Kodak which im most familliar with - NexStation ships with something like 16GB or RAM. If there using hardware processing then yes, that would be an order of magnitude faster and more scalable than a software solution in terms of processing as its a different methodolgy completly.

                              > I have read about the APIS module for XMPie, its really interesting. I think I will need it in the future, and integrate it with iWay. I think that will be an powerfull and easy to use solution for my customers.

                              I couldnt aggree more

                              Comment

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