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MGI Meteor DP8700 XL???????

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  • MGI Meteor DP8700 XL???????

    Hello,
    Anyone here have any 1st hand knowledge of the MGI Meteor DP8700 XL. My company is looking to replace our color digital press and is looking at the MGI. I'm looking to hear from users about the Pro's and Con's from a production standpoint and not the Sales guy just telling us how great it is. Any info is very much appreciated.

    Thanks!!

  • #2
    What benefits on the MGI are you interested in? What drew you to this product over any other?

    Comment


    • #3
      One benefit was the ability to print envelopes also. We are looking at other products like Kodak, Canon, etc. I was hoping to hear from someone that might have ran a MGI or that has one running in their shop since it seems they are fairly new.

      Comment


      • #4
        What are your volumes? For the price of a MGI you can buy a better solution in my opinion. If I'm not mistaken they just take a KM print engine and tweak it, then they add a pile feeder and output. Also you have to pray that you never need service, because they do not have any kind of service network.

        You can get a Okidata for envelopes and a KM 7000 for a fraction of the cost, plus you get multiple paper trays for faster turn-overs.

        I think the list price on a 8700XL is around $350,000. If I'm off base on any of this information someone correct me.

        Comment


        • #5
          We just spent the last month comparing the 8700XL to the Xerox 800/1000 and an Indigo, and the MGI won. The price is actually closer to $250 and we have found a very extensive support network. But, it is dealer dependent so it seems to depend on your location. I'll report back after installation.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks for your input. Keep me posted would really like to hear how things go with the MGI.

            Comment


            • #7
              We are also looking into the 8700 XL, the price ranges from 230 to 250K depending on what exactly you need.

              Every company I have come across wants the operator to do 90% of the service anyway, so unless you have a problem with that you might be more comfortable with a bigger company. They will train you for 2-3 weeks though.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Reldim View Post
                We just spent the last month comparing the 8700XL to the Xerox 800/1000 and an Indigo, and the MGI won. The price is actually closer to $250 and we have found a very extensive support network. But, it is dealer dependent so it seems to depend on your location. I'll report back after installation.
                We bought DP60, printing color is more accurate than Indigo but ink look thicker than Indigo. To service, MGI does not have in town like others but the machine is very good running day after day. We have few down times, but MgI can do remote supports very effective.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by arossetti View Post
                  What are your volumes? For the price of a MGI you can buy a better solution in my opinion. If I'm not mistaken they just take a KM print engine and tweak it, then they add a pile feeder and output. Also you have to pray that you never need service, because they do not have any kind of service network.

                  You can get a Okidata for envelopes and a KM 7000 for a fraction of the cost, plus you get multiple paper trays for faster turn-overs.

                  I think the list price on a 8700XL is around $350,000. If I'm off base on any of this information someone correct me.
                  Yes. MGI used KM engine for their machine but speed and printing quality is much different.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks for the input guys. Yesterday I went to look at the MGI and took a few files along. Everything looked good until they tried my VDX file from a variable data job that I do every week. It totally CHOKED the rip. The press itself is nice but the rip looks over complicated. It seemed to take more clicks to get the job set up then I'm used to now with our Kodak M700 and my rip chews up the VDX files we send to it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I've never evaluated the DP87000 extensively outside of seeing it at Graph last year but I've gotten some feedback from those who have. I must say though, where is the ROI on this thing? I know that it will satisfy some unique applications and if you can fill up press time with just that work it would conceivably make sense, but I’m still struggling with the positioning of it. This isn’t to trash the product, it’s just my thought process on it and I’d welcome any feedback from those of you that run it or have looked at it closer than I have.

                      It will do a larger sheet size, either 26” or 40” with the option (which basically makes it 2x the width of the normal engine but I’d assume close to 2x the cost also?). If you have an application for finished sheet sizes over 19” this would be a benefit. But for traditional digital work, it’s print speed is less than a KM C8000 or Xerox 800, so you could get more toner laid down on paper in an hour with either of those using 13x19 sheets over the 26” config. You would have the ability to run multi up on a larger sheet, but MGI’s consumables are pay what you eat so there’s no real cost advantage over printing the same amount of toner on 19” sheets, not to mention you now have to consider cost of coverage.

                      It can handle some unique substrates – plastics etc – but is deficient in paper substrate flexibility vs. KM C8000 and Xerox 800. The MGI can print on a 350gsm sheet which is the same but it can only duplex a 10pt sheet. It also has pretty low paper input/output at 3k in > 6k out vs. north of 10k in > 10k out on KM and Xerox. It uses a vacuum feeding system which is something the KM C8000 has but Xerox 800 doesn’t. So again in this scenario, if you can fill it up with printed plastic there’s nothing else that can do it digitally so it starts to make sense, but if you have a mix you’re going to lose on one side to gain on the other.

                      When it comes down to the price you’re laying out for a solution I fail to see where (outside of someone in the niche that this press solely fills) it fits and makes money. It'd be hard to convince me you couldn’t get a KM C8000, run digital rigid poly sheets to satisfy applications you would print on plastics with the MGI, and get an Oki envelope printer and come out way better on the ROI.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Toner4Brains
                        I like your analysis and I think that you are right in what you say. If you do not have need for MGI's special capabilities don't buy it. You are much better of with cheaper solutions like KM, Xerox, Canon or Ricoh.
                        But... there is a lot of talk of specializing your offering as a way to succeed in this business. What does specializing mean, it means that you are doing things differently than you competition, you are selling different products.... How do you do this if you have bought KM, Xerox, Canon or Ricoh. They all print same sheet sizes, they use same materials, same applications...

                        With MGI you can offer different sheet sizes up to 1000 mm long. Please do not say that you don't have this demand, obviously you can not have since your digital equipment can not print it. It is up the sales department to start to offer these new products, landscape brochures 210x597 mm 210x891 mm or long 6- to 8-sheet 297 x 630 and 297 x 840 mm... Your customers would be happy if they could differentiate their offering with your new capabilities.
                        About plastics, if you are OK to pay the extra cost of "digital" materials like Xerox Nevertear etc. go ahead. My experience that all the materials have that extension (digital) are 4 to 6 times more expensive that materials that are made for offset and screen printing and MGI can use. Same with adhesive vinyls...
                        About "click charge" vs no click charge.... again you are right if the work is standard size, high toner coverage... you will not have any real benefit of no-click-charge model. But if you for example would print envelopes (one of MGI strength), letterheads or any other application where you have low coverage and the print is in actual size, you would be able to benefit much lower cost level than traditional click. (Envelope 0,013 € vs. click model 0,04 €)

                        DO NOT BUY MGI IF YOU DO NOT HAVE NEED FOR SPECIAL CAPABILITIES OF THE MACHINE, AND IF YOU THINK THAT YOUR CUSTOMERS DO NOT NEED THOSE.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Toner4Brains

                          As you might know I bought a DP60. I am very satified with color, speed, runability of the machine. You are right when you mentioned ROI and I really this is the most important and I have to learn it at least after purchasing DP60.

                          High Tower menioned special niche market, I think, like MGI bolded plastic printing, long banner. Comming back my purchasing DP60, I would forcus on: Plastic Card, Long banner (over 48cm) and photobook. Now we are facing problems:
                          * Plastic card: Ink of DP60 melts at 105C degrees. Our card laminator needs 120C degree to make plastic card good quality. So, we lost this market because we can not make plastic card by our current laminators. MGI says they can laminate the plastic card with their own machine and material at 100C degrees, but their laminator machine is abt 80K US$ and their consumables very expensive. We failed.
                          DP60 can print vinyl, PVc etc Please be carefully, you have to use MGI materials if not ink will be scratched out very easy. We failed again.
                          * Long banner: DP60 can print but speed is 2 sheets/minute meanswhile C7000 (we bought it after that) can print 20 sheets/minute. We failed again.
                          * Photobook: generally color is more better than HP Indigo but skin-tone of face and contrast trasfering (sorry my English not good) MGI can not match Indigo. So, we can not make high quality photobook.
                          * Envelope: You need good made envelope, then ink is difficult to stick to envelope because of the empty thickness of envelope.

                          * ink coverage: It is seemingly that printing cost is similar with KM but: because MGI rebuit the KM engine by replace laser system and installing new boards etc ink of MGI machine is spay out more than our expectation ie our ink coverage 40% everage (but image coverage only 15-25%). So "click charge" and "non click charge" must be considered.

                          So I studied a big lession from those and we do not see ROI from our DP60 () . Now I have to buy KMC7000 (color printing is very good now) and Refurbish Indigo 5500 for competition on our paper printing market and photobook with hoping to take back ROI of DP60.

                          My option is that MGI should sell their machine abt 120-130K US$.

                          Dzung

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Dzung - great points. Too bad they weren't more upfront about these specifics before you bought it.

                            My big question - how do you get 20 long banners per minute on the C7000? We send out some jobs on a C7000 but can't get near this speed - only one sheet at a time through the bypass. Would love to hear if you have a workaround for our dust jackets.

                            Thanks

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hello all, and Happy New Year.

                              I'm sorry to pickup this topic, the last post I saw was on august. But it's interesting, cause I have been work with MGI for 5 years, in Brazil....


                              About what Dzung wrote, there are a lot of things to be considered before any conclusion. The DP60 (and the DP8700 as well), will melt the plastic, but in different temperatures as the settings used on the Pilot. And, of course, any configuration on it to print or after to laminate, will depend the plastic kind and specs. The first thing is think is, if the plastic has or not prime coat.

                              MGI says his plastic doesn't need coat. This is correct, but we can use a lot of plastics (PVC, for ex.) w/wo coat to laminate.

                              And, of course, we never can compare the DP60 x DP8700, cause these machines have a lot of diffs. The biggest one is about the toner. The DP8700 has a "thin one" and "dry", Working on 1200 DPI. The DP60 works on 600 DPI. The range to configure the Pilot will differ a lot between them, and never a configuration on one will work on the same way on another model (DP60 x DP8700). I can say the same about the plastics.
                              I have a lot of customers here in Brazil, working on DP60/DP8700 and they're using differents laminating machines, with excellent results.

                              Continuing, about the photobooks. If we use the information about the engine (DP60 x C7000), this isn't correct, cause the C7000 must be compared with the DP8700. The DP60 is supposed to be compared to the C6500 KM. But, about the engines itself, the engines doesn't belong to KM, or to MGI. They're OEM engines, used by a lot of manufactors, as OCE, KM, MGI, Ricoh, etc. The big point is the electronics inside each one.

                              About the Ink coverage, I don't know what was the expectation, but here we never talk anything lower than 50%. Cause the coverage is usually missunderstood. We need to think about linear coverage, and never about density. The MGI works on density, but the coasts must be in linear measure.

                              About Indigo, I know about them too. They're amazing, specially cause the ink technology, but there is a lot of "hidden fees". On Indigo 5500, the big question is the One Shot Kit.

                              Please, I'm not a MGI salesman. But, on the last 20 years working with printers, I can say the MGI is the best to work with plastics. If the target is only papers, on simple formats and high production, I can point the Indigo. And, if the production is based on "short shots", with formats limited to 13'' on large, with simple papers too, I can point the KM C7000.

                              And, of course, there is a lot of things to discuss about, but there is no enough space here to do it. I just want to help a little about the discussion.

                              Oh, and sorry for my english... as I said, I'm in Brazil.


                              See you....

                              Comment

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