Canon vs. Xerox

[Chris R]

Hello - new forum participant here, hoping for some input. We're a digital print shop and I'm looking at replacing my Canon ImagePRESS C7010. I'm looking at the Canon ImagePRESS C10000VP and the Xerox Versant 3100. Does anyone have any opinions on one over the other? Any feedback would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[noelward]

I'm more familiar with the Canon, but both are very good machines. Personally, I like the Canon, but such judgements are pretty subjective. As you already have a Canon, you might get a sweeter deal from your Canon dealer. Unless one machine has real advantages over the other for your needs, play the companies off each other when you work the deal.

IMHO, the box isn't as much of a question as is service. Service is the big issue for ALL digital print engines. The machines today are generally very reliable, but they still have to work when you need them. The Versant is probably sold and serviced direct from Xerox, while the Canon probably comes to you through a local dealer. Either way, what you have to be sure of is that your service agreement reflects your business needs. If you need 24/7 service, for instance, get it in writing. AND, no matter who you buy the machine from, get a service guarantee that a tech will be at your site within 2-4 hours (4 is common). Also, I strongly recommend that you have your machine operators get as fully trained as possible so they can do as much maintenance and servicing to reduce the need for a tech to come on site.

 

[Chris R]

Thanks noelward. I couldn't agree more. We were actually exclusively Xerox for almost 20 years before making the switch to Canon on this unit, and it was almost entirely due to service - or the lack of it - that we started receiving from Xerox. Now my local tech retired and Canon service has taken a nose dive and they tell me they wont have full resolution for about 6 months. i have almost 11 million clicks on my 7010, and she's failing on me more frequently as my volume goes up, so this is a real concern. Both deals I'm negotiating are direct with Canon and Xerox. Xerox tells me they're back to focusing on print - as opposed to all of the other ventures they were getting into in recent years - and that their service is back to par. Canon tells me that with a new machine i shouldn't have serious maintenance problems and that by the time I do they will have a local tech fully trained. Just seems to me that my machine is failing and their solution is to sell me another machine. Either way I think I have a some hand, as Xerox wants the business back and Canon wants to keep it. And you're right, on paper Canon's proposal is more attractive from a dollars and cents perspective.

Spec wise the two boxes seem pretty similar. There are things about the 7010 that I'm not wild about - front to back registration, inability to print consistent coverage on heavy coated stock (i.e. deletion on the trail and lead edge), and a lack of fill/saturation on heavy uncoated sheets. Rep tells me these issues have been addressed, but he's a salesman, that's what he's supposed to say. In my experience what a spec sheet says a machine can do is quite different than how it performs on the floor. Do you currently run either box? If so, what is your opinion?

Thanks!

 

[namelessentity]

Spec wise the two boxes seem pretty similar. There are things about the 7010 that I'm not wild about - front to back registration, inability to print consistent coverage on heavy coated stock (i.e. deletion on the trail and lead edge), and a lack of fill/saturation on heavy uncoated sheets. Rep tells me these issues have been addressed, but he's a salesman, that's what he's supposed to say. In my experience what a spec sheet says a machine can do is quite different than how it performs on the floor. Do you currently run either box? If so, what is your opinion?

Thanks!

I'm so glad you mentioned the tail end fading on your 7000. That was one of the biggest reasons when it came to upgrade that I wanted to look at other vendors. I had to limit layouts so often due to that issue.
We still ended up buying the 10,000, and thankfully I haven't seen that issue once @ 1.2mil clicks.

The coverage is MUCH better than the 6010/7010, especially on uncoated sheets, and the blur effect on light colored text has been eliminated as well (I have a feeling you've noticed this). It also does a much better job on linen and felt, although felt is still not perfect.
We have the Prismasync controller, and they've added stock voltage settings at the user panel, so it's way less of a hassle to make quick stock adjustments on the fly.

So far the reliability has been dramatically higher than our old 6010. We are an all Canon/Oce shop (750/6010/10000 + Oce Varioprint 6320) so I see the techs pretty frequently for something, but I pretty much never call the 10k in. When it was new a motor came unplugged which was causing jams, but otherwise it hasn't needed anything besides the regular PMs (every 500k afaik).

 

[noelward]

Chris R...
With 11 million clicks on your 7010 you don't have much to complain about. Color toner machines normally have issues well before that point, and all the things mentioned here are not unusual on that box. Or various others.

In my opinion, Xerox is trying to get back into the game and I think they will work hard to prove they are still a major player. The Versant line is a good one, but I think Canon probably brings a bit more to the party, in no small part because they are an imaging company (cameras, sensors, medical, printing) and seem to share knowledge across the entire organization. Xerox is still a copy and print company and doesn't even make some of their machines. That's OK, but I think they are about 1/2 step behind Canon at the moment. This can change because you can never, never, count Xerox out, but right now I'd put my bets on Canon.

As for service, the issue with Canon, Konica Minolta, and Ricoh (BTW, have you looked at the 9110?) is that they are all dealer serviced, which can mean some variability. I know shops that have gone to and from a given vendor based purely on the service issue. Xerox is usually direct, which can make a difference, but it can still be uneven. That said the C10000 is new, leverages some established technology, and should be good while the techs get up to speed. But the same can be said for the Versant 3100. All the vendors release machines before the techs are fully trained. It's actually hard not to do so, because some performance issues only show up in the real world.

As I noted before, get an iron-clad service agreement, no matter which box you pick.

 

[MailGuru]

Suppose, for a moment, that you went out and bought a new car. According to the sales person, as well as the owner's manual, when it begins to rain, the windshield wipers automatically come on, without you, the driver, doing anything. Only, it doesn't. So, you take it back to be serviced. The technicians fix it, but, a couple weeks later, it is dysfunctional again. The techs don't seem to be able to diagnose and fix the problem.

Would they take the car back and give you a brand new one? I think not.

With a Xerox printer, you get a "CED" (Customer Expectation Document) that spells out everything you can, and, can not expect from your printer. If your machine is not within the specs as outlined in your CED (color quality, speed, alignment, etc.), and, the techs can not figure out how to fix it, they are obligated to pull and replace your machine. This is not just a sales spiel. I know first hand. They just, within the last couple of months, had to replace one of our Versant 2100's because they could not figure out an alignment problem that kept cropping up. Last year, they had to replace one of our Fiery EXP Hyper Rips because of an intermittent power problem.

I don't know how other vendors operate, as, we are an all-Xerox shop for color. Primarily because of the service, and, the way they do business.

Full disclosure: We are not affiliated in any way, shape or form with Xerox or Fuji. We are a print services provider.

 

[wonderings]

We have a Versant 2100 and from what a Rep from Xerox told me is identical to the 3100 other then the finishing options they 3100 has and a slightly faster RIP. Our 2100 has been a phenomenal machine, very consistent colours, reliable and a work horse. Had service in about 2 weeks ago for a dirty sensor that was causing some jams, other then that it had been just over 2 months since the last service call. Needless to say I have been very happy with the performance and features of the 2100. A lot does come down to service though, we have great techs in our area which is one of the big reasons we have stayed with Xerox. I do not always go 2 months without service, I would say the norm has been about once a month.

 

[Chris R]

Namelessentity, it's good to hear that the issues i described seem to have been addressed and resolved in the C10000 line. And Noelward, i agree that these types of issues are the nature of the beast, but they presented themselves well before i came anywhere near 11 million, and they have never gone away. Service is key, and I will definitely be shoring up that detail with any agreement we enter into. Thanks for the feedback all, keep it coming if anyone has anything to add!