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Hardware suggestions - 350gsm full bleed duplex

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  • #16
    Hi Chris,

    We have a great solution that is actually already used by several companies for greeting cards specifically. We can bleed and duplex up to 430GSM at 60 pages per minute speeds in full color.

    http://www.renausa.com/products/49/mach-5dx.html

    Sincerely,

    William Longua
    Senior Director

    RENA Systems

    Phone: (888) 444-RENA x 80051

    3100 Horizon Drive - Suite 100
    King of Prussia, PA 19406-2660

    renausa.com




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    • #17
      Chrysbyrd. Full disclosure. We are an OkiData dealer as well as 17 other graphic product lines. I agree the OkiData 931e is a great printer choice for your application. There are many on the secondary market that would work just fine as your startup machine. The Oki is a self service printer which means the operator can replace the drums, belt, fuser, waste toner and toner. This save on down time and service calls. The engine is very robust and can easily handle your 10,000 per month with room to grow. The 931e also has a near straight through paper path, which definitely helps with heavier stocks. The MP tray can handle up to 360gsm but the duplex unit cannot. This is not a bad thing. By running the first side through the machine first and then running the job back through the MP tray to print on the back gives you total control of front to back registration. If the duplex job file was not created with proper front to back registration, you will have problems fixing the registration. On short runs, speed is not critical, but on longer runs, the two step process is usually faster. The down size of the Oki 931e is supply cost, specifically toner. Heavy coverage can get expensive, but the low initial cost and no click charges can give you an overall lower cost of ownership than an expensive copier under a service contract that is capable of the 360gsm. When you reach a greater volume, then you can explore copier options or maybe multiple Oki 931es. On the subject of full bleed. No. You will need to print on a larger sheet and cut down to the finished, full bleed size. We have ways to cheat in the offset world, and the sides with a digital engine, but not the lead and trailing edges. Not worth the hassle or time. The 931e can print 13 x 47+. Gang up your cards the best you can. As far as cutting. If you have a large number of short run, varied size cards, the 945 Duplo could be an option. But used ones can be very expensive to repair. (rollers and blades) You will need a guillotine cutter, even if you have a Duplo or similar slit, cut crease machine. Buy a used guillotine cutter and grow into a slit, cut creaser once your volume reaches a point where you can save on the labor cost by going to a slit, cut, crease. 10,000 a month is not enough, in my opinion. You will still need a guillotine cutter. Sorry for being so long winded. Good luck.

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      • #18
        I run the snot out of a 931e, for envelopes it does great, thicker stuff I have had issues with it jamming and wouldn't recommend running 350gsm through it.
        (2) Ricoh Pro 7110SX digital printers
        OKI C931e with Straight Shooter Envelope feeder

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        • #19
          Thought I'd share my experience with the suggested Oki (actually running a c911, which I believe is the same engine).

          While there are many good points to it, the print quality on heavy stock isn't perfect. It has a tendency for the colour registration to go off on the trail edge of the page. Sometimes it's barely noticeable, sometimes it's quite bad. Heavy mix of magenta and cyan seem to be the worst.

          I run Xerox color impressions 350gsm silk coated. Also had the issue with Mondi 300gsm uncoated. Mainly print short run business cards, so the issue isn't too bad as even when the colours go badly off I can usually save some of the cards from the sheet.

          If you are considering the Oki, make sure you demo it with your own paper and artwork. Run at least 10 pages in one hit - the first three always come out perfect, from 4 onwards take a close look at the colour registration.

          It is known to Oki as their manual makes reference to it with a setting intended to minimise the effect (heavy media adjust mode).

          The latest firmware has improved the quality, and I have seen there is a revised transfer belt so it may no longer be an issue.

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          • #20
            do you have trimming capabilities? You will need that to print oversize and trim. If your service plan is charges by clicks it pays to print on A3 plus and trim to A4. We have similar requirements to your and we recently installed a new machine. I test drove all the major brands and print quantity is fantastic on all machines these days. We would up installing the Knoia Mnolta Accurio 3070. I like the KM because the entry level print engine can use all the front end and back end accessories that are used on the large machines. To duplex 350gsm wil you need a high quality paper feeding unit and the KM has a vacuums assist paper feed. I didn't see it on the entry models of the other brands and that was a major decision for the KM. With 350gsm duplex I still keep my eye on it inspecting every few sheets for front to back registration. KM does have expensive software that automatically does this but I decided nt to go that route to keep the monthly lease cost down. I would advise against a refurbished machine. If you have work to do done' waste time on a so called bargain. An't worth it. A lease on a new machine isn't much and you'll need the support if you are new at digital printing. I'd consider a refurbished as a back up press only.

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            • #21
              Chris,
              On a small to mid-size printer I don't think there is a machine that prints full-bleed directly. If you are doing folded cards, you are going to need a finisher anyway so look at a creaser/cutter. You may as well get something like a Duplo DC-646 to cut and crease your cards out of a larger sheet. Creasing digital output doesn't work with every creaser. The Duplo wil also solve your bleed needs. With our click-rate we can make 2-4 cards for less than 5 cents +paper.We use a Xerox Versant to make greeting cards with the duplo combination and produce 20K per month quite easliy with that combo, aside from a lot more "regular" printing. I think a used Versant could get you going fairly inexpensively. But really, your finishing equioment is a much bigger issue than what printer you choose. I have had this discussion mutliple times in our photo lab buying group. Some small printer's toner costs will not let you be competitive on materials cost.
              Last edited by Lorenzo, lab guy; 04-14-2019, 06:59 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by studioindustria View Post
                I would advise against a refurbished machine. If you have work to do done' waste time on a so called bargain. An't worth it. A lease on a new machine isn't much and you'll need the support if you are new at digital printing. I'd consider a refurbished as a back up press only.
                You can get refurbished machines with a service contract. That is how we got into digital printing (were offset only). Was much cheaper, did the job reasonably well and let us figure some things out with what we wanted to do and did not want to do. Much smaller investment on a previous gen machine and a service contract to keep us up and running.

                I would only agree with avoiding used machines if you do not have a service contract. So many things can go wonky the time of trying to fix it yourself would cost more then the service guys coming in and having parts and everything you need at their disposal.

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                • #23
                  Thanks everyone - really appreciate the input.

                  I’ve learnt *a lot* from this thread!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by wonderings View Post

                    You can get refurbished machines with a service contract. That is how we got into digital printing (were offset only). Was much cheaper, did the job reasonably well and let us figure some things out with what we wanted to do and did not want to do. Much smaller investment on a previous gen machine and a service contract to keep us up and running.

                    I would only agree with avoiding used machines if you do not have a service contract. So many things can go wonky the time of trying to fix it yourself would cost more then the service guys coming in and having parts and everything you need at their disposal.
                    Yes I agree you can get a contact on a used machine. Just talk to the local service manager before you buy and see what they want done to it before they will cover it.
                    Warning I am a Ricoh tech.

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                    • #25
                      So, I think I’m going to get an Oki c911 and a 450VS+ guillotine to get started with this - anybody see any major problems with using this Oki?

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                      • #26
                        How did the test prints turn out? Was the demo unit using the revised transfer belt? I'd be very interested to hear, this colour registration has been annoying me but I'm loathe to fit a new belt as I've no idea if it would actually improve things.

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                        • #27
                          911 is worse than the 931 on thicker media, why would you go that direction? Price?

                          I wouldn't touch a 911 with a ten foot pole if I was doing professional work.
                          (2) Ricoh Pro 7110SX digital printers
                          OKI C931e with Straight Shooter Envelope feeder

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Shawnd View Post
                            911 is worse than the 931 on thicker media, why would you go that direction? Price?

                            I wouldn't touch a 911 with a ten foot pole if I was doing professional work.
                            Ah, I thought they were similar

                            931 looks discontinued - what’s the replacement?

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                            • #29
                              At the time I bought my c911 the dealer told me the only difference to the pro series models was the CPU speed. Having just checked the Oki website though I can see the pro series models use different imaging drums, so it's only the transfer belt and fused that are common to all the models.

                              The model numbers differ globally, I was told the 931 was the 9431 in the UK, so it all depends where you are based.

                              Interestingly, the dealer I bought from has the 9431 listed on their website, but has a note recommending the c911 over it as it has a longer warranty and is "the same specification"... very confusing! Maybe Shawnd can shed more light on the difference between the internals of the models?

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                              • #30
                                https://www.oki.com/us/printing/prod...931/index.html

                                Doesn't say that on oki's site. Still the 931 will not handle heavy media that well either. For heavy media like 350gsm+ you need either memjet or production class equipment or you will be hating your decision while trying to fill a bigger order.
                                (2) Ricoh Pro 7110SX digital printers
                                OKI C931e with Straight Shooter Envelope feeder

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