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  • Small Usage Press for Booklets - Recommendations?

    In trying to do research on digital presses as our Canon C700 lease comes up at the end of 5 years, this seems to be the ONLY place with any sort of useful, non-press release, information! Hopefully some of you can assist.

    Background:

    I am the jack of all trades IT guy at a small/medium architectural firm that has a Canon C700 for making square edge fold booklets that makes all of our proposals and marketing material to win projects. Our volume is VERY low (3000/month avg, 7000/month peak), but the C700 was the solution because it produced the right output. That output is what brings us in business and every proposal is custom and sometimes not finalized until an hour before it goes out. Right now it uses pretty standard paper (100 lb cover, 28 lb text Hammermill), but we're looking at different paper options to make this product better as well. Its saddle stitched, faced trimmed, and square edge folded before its trimmed offline for top and bottom.

    Options:

    So we've engaged a couple local partners for options and boy do we have a wide variety of options... Its impossible for me to compare... Likely looking at 5 year lease on all options.

    1) Canon C700 (150k impressions) - re-leased (~$1300/month)
    - SDD BLM300 booklet maker

    2) Canon C750 - new (~$2100/month)
    - Plockmatic BLM 50 booklet maker

    3) Konica C1060 (~1 million impressions) - off lease (~$1100/month)
    - SD-513 Finisher

    4) Konica C3070 - new (~$2000/month)
    - SD-513 Finisher

    5) Xerox V180 - new (~$1100/month)
    - Production Ready Booklet Maker w/ Square Edge Fold

    I'd take any thoughts on any of the options or our needs in general. Obviously the used/released options financially look very promising and due to our low volume seem like great options (especially re-leasing a device we already are happy with, know the service history on, and has almost no usage). I also don't know much about the finishers (other than everyone we've talked to says the Plockmatic is the best of the bunch), and haven't seen the SDD solution and may not get to (our partner is struggling to find one locally for us to go see).

    Thank you in advance, this is not my area of expertise, but I want to make sure we get the right solution!

  • #2
    If those are the prices you’ve been quoted, the Xerox v180 is a no brainier. In the UK, we got a very competitive price for the Konica C3070 and so we got it for about £100 a month less than the Xerox.

    Comment


    • #3
      We run a lot of booklets on our V180 - it's a beast. Highly recommend the square fold option.

      Comment


      • #4
        What's the buy out on the existing machine? I don't think I would want to lease a 5 year old machine for 5 more years. Are you talking about adding a different booklet maker to the existing machine or does it already have the SDD one? What's it cost to just go month to month on the existing one?

        Those prices seem all over the place. Do they all have the same controllers and other add ons? Like do they all have a Fiery?

        Have you looked at the the machines in person to see how they would fit in your space?

        I would guess the Xerox is much lower because they can get the square fold by adding the square fold trimmer to the regular finisher (which is probably fine since you make so few books) and the others have to sell you a much more heavy duty booklet maker to get the square fold.

        You can get the same Plockmatic with a different model name on the Ricoh 5200 and the Xerox as well if you want a Plockmatic no idea what it would cost though.
        Warning I am a Ricoh tech.

        Comment


        • #5
          I think the V180 wins, as long as you don't need to do very thick books. I think the Production booklet maker is 25 sheets/100pp book. The square fold and trim unit is made by Plock.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by msaeger View Post
            What's the buy out on the existing machine? I don't think I would want to lease a 5 year old machine for 5 more years. Are you talking about adding a different booklet maker to the existing machine or does it already have the SDD one? What's it cost to just go month to month on the existing one?
            I don't know what the buyout on the C700 machine is. Buying it is likely not a financially viable option for us. But yes, it would add a different booklet maker to an existing machine (the machine has the Canon finisher now). Because of the equipment change (and there are other devices in that lease, there likely isn't a month to month option.

            Originally posted by msaeger View Post
            Those prices seem all over the place. Do they all have the same controllers and other add ons? Like do they all have a Fiery?
            Yes, they all have an embedded fiery. They are all configured for the same booklet needs. I'm guessing the Canon re-lease is driven by the change of finisher, the Canon new is higher due to the Plockmatic, the Konica used is about the same as the Canon used. It does seem the Xerox having their own finishing to get what we need rather than setting up to something different helps them.

            Originally posted by msaeger View Post
            Have you looked at the the machines in person to see how they would fit in your space?
            We have seen the Xerox and Canon (its already in our office), but not the KM yet. We do have all measurements, and we think they will all fit. The Canon C700 now is huge, so some of these are actually smaller.

            Originally posted by msaeger View Post
            You can get the same Plockmatic with a different model name on the Ricoh 5200 and the Xerox as well if you want a Plockmatic no idea what it would cost though.
            The real drive on the finisher is the Canon finisher has a steep (stated on spec sheet) dropoff on booklet size when using any coated paper. Our graphic design team is starting to experiment with paper and I don't want to handicap them now. We hope to narrow this down and run some of the paper we want to use on each machine.

            Comment


            • #7
              Get the Xerox and don't look back. Very solid machine.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by jstroebel View Post
                In trying to do research on digital presses as our Canon C700 lease comes up at the end of 5 years, this seems to be the ONLY place with any sort of useful, non-press release, information! Hopefully some of you can assist.

                Background:

                I am the jack of all trades IT guy at a small/medium architectural firm that has a Canon C700 for making square edge fold booklets that makes all of our proposals and marketing material to win projects. Our volume is VERY low (3000/month avg, 7000/month peak), but the C700 was the solution because it produced the right output. That output is what brings us in business and every proposal is custom and sometimes not finalized until an hour before it goes out. Right now it uses pretty standard paper (100 lb cover, 28 lb text Hammermill), but we're looking at different paper options to make this product better as well. Its saddle stitched, faced trimmed, and square edge folded before its trimmed offline for top and bottom.

                Options:

                So we've engaged a couple local partners for options and boy do we have a wide variety of options... Its impossible for me to compare... Likely looking at 5 year lease on all options.

                1) Canon C700 (150k impressions) - re-leased (~$1300/month)
                - SDD BLM300 booklet maker

                2) Canon C750 - new (~$2100/month)
                - Plockmatic BLM 50 booklet maker

                3) Konica C1060 (~1 million impressions) - off lease (~$1100/month)
                - SD-513 Finisher

                4) Konica C3070 - new (~$2000/month)
                - SD-513 Finisher

                5) Xerox V180 - new (~$1100/month)
                - Production Ready Booklet Maker w/ Square Edge Fold

                I'd take any thoughts on any of the options or our needs in general. Obviously the used/released options financially look very promising and due to our low volume seem like great options (especially re-leasing a device we already are happy with, know the service history on, and has almost no usage). I also don't know much about the finishers (other than everyone we've talked to says the Plockmatic is the best of the bunch), and haven't seen the SDD solution and may not get to (our partner is struggling to find one locally for us to go see).

                Thank you in advance, this is not my area of expertise, but I want to make sure we get the right solution!
                So I'm not too different from you. I work as a designer for a small-ish church. We do LOADs of printing in house including booklets, but don't have them plockmatic.

                We are looking at Ricoh 5200 and a Canon C650 -- We were almost all set to pick the Ricoh -- in demo it was just that extra bit better. But now Canon is releasing a newer ImagePress...so if they are quoting you a C750 -- ask for a quote for the new C710 (810 or 910) depending on the speed you're looking for. It releases April 20. So we will be demo-ing that when they get it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by PrintIsMyJam View Post

                  So I'm not too different from you. I work as a designer for a small-ish church. We do LOADs of printing in house including booklets, but don't have them plockmatic.

                  We are looking at Ricoh 5200 and a Canon C650 -- We were almost all set to pick the Ricoh -- in demo it was just that extra bit better. But now Canon is releasing a newer ImagePress...so if they are quoting you a C750 -- ask for a quote for the new C710 (810 or 910) depending on the speed you're looking for. It releases April 20. So we will be demo-ing that when they get it.

                  I just asked them about that! It seems to solve our major issue that any 3rd party finishing requires extra length and a High Capacity Stacker on the C700 and C750, but this doesn't seem to need that. Numerically seems like it might sit below the C750 in cost, but spec-wise it seems like an upgrade...

                  Thanks for the heads up!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jstroebel View Post


                    I just asked them about that! It seems to solve our major issue that any 3rd party finishing requires extra length and a High Capacity Stacker on the C700 and C750, but this doesn't seem to need that. Numerically seems like it might sit below the C750 in cost, but spec-wise it seems like an upgrade...

                    Thanks for the heads up!
                    You're very welcome! Glad I could help. I'm excited to try it when it comes out.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The Xerox Versant 2100 with the Square fold booklet maker will give you the same results as the 3100 for a lower price.

                      BUT, make sure to have them go over in detail with you what they call "Booklet Shingling" and skew on the 3 edge trim.
                      Make sure that the results are acceptable for you. See samples...dont let them act like they dont know what you are talking about.
                      Or that tis not a big deal. Because believe me its a HUGE deal.
                      The book can come out skewed and Xerox spec says upto 2 mm is ok and they wont fix it.
                      Also, the insides of the book can show out from the cover too and they will consider it in spec.

                      We have a Versant 2100, Versant 3100 and Xerox ColorPress 1000
                      I know how these run and the truth.
                      When they work...no one else can beat them.
                      When they work they are truly amazing.
                      But, its when the hidden issues come up and xerox feels that it is in spec.

                      Cheers




                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PrintingFools View Post
                        The Xerox Versant 2100 with the Square fold booklet maker will give you the same results as the 3100 for a lower price.

                        BUT, make sure to have them go over in detail with you what they call "Booklet Shingling" and skew on the 3 edge trim.
                        Make sure that the results are acceptable for you. See samples...dont let them act like they dont know what you are talking about.
                        Or that tis not a big deal. Because believe me its a HUGE deal.
                        The book can come out skewed and Xerox spec says upto 2 mm is ok and they wont fix it.
                        Also, the insides of the book can show out from the cover too and they will consider it in spec.

                        We have a Versant 2100, Versant 3100 and Xerox ColorPress 1000
                        I know how these run and the truth.
                        When they work...no one else can beat them.
                        When they work they are truly amazing.
                        But, its when the hidden issues come up and xerox feels that it is in spec.

                        Cheers



                        Do you mean the fold skewed or the face trim? Or do you mean the bleed trim on a full bleed book? I though the poster was looking for face trim with a square fold.
                        Warning I am a Ricoh tech.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by PrintingFools View Post
                          The Xerox Versant 2100 with the Square fold booklet maker will give you the same results as the 3100 for a lower price.

                          BUT, make sure to have them go over in detail with you what they call "Booklet Shingling" and skew on the 3 edge trim.
                          Make sure that the results are acceptable for you. See samples...dont let them act like they dont know what you are talking about.
                          Or that tis not a big deal. Because believe me its a HUGE deal.
                          The book can come out skewed and Xerox spec says upto 2 mm is ok and they wont fix it.
                          Also, the insides of the book can show out from the cover too and they will consider it in spec.

                          We have a Versant 2100, Versant 3100 and Xerox ColorPress 1000
                          I know how these run and the truth.
                          When they work...no one else can beat them.
                          When they work they are truly amazing.
                          But, its when the hidden issues come up and xerox feels that it is in spec.

                          Cheers



                          I know the issue you are talking about and I do not consider it to be a deal breaker. For the machine to do all it does inline, it's completely acceptable. Essentially the issue is that when the booklet is assembled, not all of the sheets are the size width (this would be the 11" dimension for an 8.5 x 11" booklet, trimmed/folded from 12 x 18"). This is due to the fact that each 12 x 18" sheet is 2-side trimmed individually as it runs through the paper path, before each sheet is collected in the booklet module. Of course, there is an incredibly minute amount of skew to each page, so that when they stack, they kind of don't line up perfectly. On our machine it's basically imperceptible to me, and I have not had any clients complain about the way it looks.

                          The face trim is performed at the final stage, so all of those sheets are trimmed after the booklet is assembled and stapled. There are no issues with the face trimming.

                          With that being said, the comment PrintingFools is making could certainly vary between machines. I have had only a handful of rejected booklets from 25,000+. He is correct in that sometimes Xerox plays a little game with "in spec" stuff from time-to-time, but then again it also depends upon your service staff, the specialist technicians and also who sold you the machine. Nothing any other company is exempt from.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PricelineNegotiator View Post

                            I know the issue you are talking about and I do not consider it to be a deal breaker. For the machine to do all it does inline, it's completely acceptable. Essentially the issue is that when the booklet is assembled, not all of the sheets are the size width (this would be the 11" dimension for an 8.5 x 11" booklet, trimmed/folded from 12 x 18"). This is due to the fact that each 12 x 18" sheet is 2-side trimmed individually as it runs through the paper path, before each sheet is collected in the booklet module. Of course, there is an incredibly minute amount of skew to each page, so that when they stack, they kind of don't line up perfectly. On our machine it's basically imperceptible to me, and I have not had any clients complain about the way it looks.

                            The face trim is performed at the final stage, so all of those sheets are trimmed after the booklet is assembled and stapled. There are no issues with the face trimming.

                            With that being said, the comment PrintingFools is making could certainly vary between machines. I have had only a handful of rejected booklets from 25,000+. He is correct in that sometimes Xerox plays a little game with "in spec" stuff from time-to-time, but then again it also depends upon your service staff, the specialist technicians and also who sold you the machine. Nothing any other company is exempt from.
                            Im with you on this, our we've never had unacceptable booklets made inline with 3 sided trimming inline on our V3100. I have had a few issues with the 2 sided trimmer trimming the cover crooked but not the inside pages. My service gave me the NVM to change the cover size so I widen it up a bit and it looks great. Not enough to notice but the insides of the book don't show. I Know what PrintingFools is talking about with the face trim skew. Occasionally we will get a book that is just flat out trimmed crooked. If we see it, we throw it out. If not it just gets stacked and boxed with the rest. Never had a reject. Thats also why you send some extras. We had someone say well a few books were damaged, etc and we are always like thats why we overprint. If you want to individually count you'll see your ahead of what you ordered and they say oh thanks!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by AP90 View Post

                              Im with you on this, our we've never had unacceptable booklets made inline with 3 sided trimming inline on our V3100. I have had a few issues with the 2 sided trimmer trimming the cover crooked but not the inside pages. My service gave me the NVM to change the cover size so I widen it up a bit and it looks great. Not enough to notice but the insides of the book don't show. I Know what PrintingFools is talking about with the face trim skew. Occasionally we will get a book that is just flat out trimmed crooked. If we see it, we throw it out. If not it just gets stacked and boxed with the rest. Never had a reject. Thats also why you send some extras. We had someone say well a few books were damaged, etc and we are always like thats why we overprint. If you want to individually count you'll see your ahead of what you ordered and they say oh thanks!
                              100% true.

                              Comment

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