C6500 vs. DC700... Coated GLS TXT Quality

[ShortRunMagazines]

We are a short run magazine printer (hense the name) looking for a replacement of our KM C500's. I am trying to pick between the DC700 and the KM6500/01. I am leaning toward the Xerox line due to it being Xerox and their customer replacable components. (I ran a DC5000 and absolutely loved it, however the leasing company says we can't have it and want us to cram 120,000 12x18 clks on a DC700 in a month despite the fact that the click savings will pay for the lease -- we are at $0.054/click with a $300 flat "service charge".)

I worked on one of the first KM6500's and hated it, registration, rip issues, error code galore, color bouncing (including on the calibration sheets!) and am fearful of getting back in bed with KM because of my past experience.

My questions are as follows:
1) Has the KM 6500 stabilized? Is the KM6501 that much better than the KM6500?

2) Which has a better chance of getting 120,000 12x18 clicks done in a month (we are currently running 2 shifts 6 days a week to get it out of the 3 KMC500's we have)?

3) We primarily run 80# gloss text duplex and need registration to improve from 2mm (at best) Front-to-Back. Who's better at this and 100# gloss text paper?

4) The quote I have from a Xerox Dealer is $0.041/click. I'd be happy with anything below $0.045/click. Can the KM6500/01 compete financially?

5) Is the toner shortage still in effect on the DC700? My local dealer says it's no problem however I know a guy that has one and it takes him a week to get 3 black carts.

Image quality is not a vital component for us as customers are happy with what we are shipping from the C500 line. Yes we want it to look good, but the most important thing is to put print on paper in the right place (registration), increase speed so we can go back to 1 shift, and have the yellow's look yellow and not green or orange.

Thanks for your time, I am going to run a job on the demo DC700 this week, but I want real world feedback, not showroom bs!

Jerod.

 

[UberTech]

We are a short run magazine printer (hense the name) looking for a replacement of our KM C500's. I am trying to pick between the DC700 and the KM6500/01. I am leaning toward the Xerox line due to it being Xerox and their customer replacable components. (I ran a DC5000 and absolutely loved it, however the leasing company says we can't have it and want us to cram 120,000 12x18 clks on a DC700 in a month despite the fact that the click savings will pay for the lease -- we are at $0.054/click with a $300 flat "service charge".)

I worked on one of the first KM6500's and hated it, registration, rip issues, error code galore, color bouncing (including on the calibration sheets!) and am fearful of getting back in bed with KM because of my past experience.

My questions are as follows:
1) Has the KM 6500 stabilized? Is the KM6501 that much better than the KM6500?

The machine is only as good as the service. If you have fantastic service you will have a fantastic machine.

2) Which has a better chance of getting 120,000 12x18 clicks done in a month (we are currently running 2 shifts 6 days a week to get it out of the 3 KMC500's we have)?

Ummm neither, 150 does not go into 65 or 70 the last time I checked.

3) We primarily run 80# gloss text duplex and need registration to improve from 2mm (at best) Front-to-Back. Who's better at this and 100# gloss text paper?

Both machines claim better reg than this.

4) The quote I have from a Xerox Dealer is $0.041/click. I'd be happy with anything below $0.045/click. Can the KM6500/01 compete financially?

Pass

5) Is the toner shortage still in effect on the DC700? My local dealer says it's no problem however I know a guy that has one and it takes him a week to get 3 black carts.

Pass

Image quality is not a vital component for us as customers are happy with what we are shipping from the C500 line. Yes we want it to look good, but the most important thing is to put print on paper in the right place (registration), increase speed so we can go back to 1 shift, and have the yellow's look yellow and not green or orange.

Not sure how your going to go to a single shift by getting rid of 3 machines and going to one, the math just doesn't work out.

Thanks for your time, I am going to run a job on the demo DC700 this week, but I want real world feedback, not showroom bs!

Jerod.

 

[ShortRunMagazines]

I truly wish this forum was for Key Operators/Owners only. Telling me what the spec sheet says is of no use, I can read. I am looking for information based on first hand experience. I had a KM6500 and the spec sheet claimed a lot of things when I purchased it. In reality I had over 100 service calls in about 6 months. The spec sheet said nothing about the $300,000 lawsuit I ended up in because the dealer wouldn't take the piece of crap back.

I am trying to find out if the bugs have been worked out on the KM6500 as well as insight to a machine I haven't worked on, the DC700. As comforting as having the Western District VP of KMUSA tell me I'd had every known issue is, I'd like something that works...

If you have first hand experience with either machine (outside of "I sold one once") I'd really appreciate an answer.

 

[UberTech]

I don't sell I service and I'm not about to tell you what a machine can't do. 300k lawsuit! Take them off the shortlist.

 

[ShortRunMagazines]

Just so I'm clear, A service tech that will NOT tell me what a machine they service cannot do? Sales must love you!

 

[lfelton]

We put on close to 200K SRA3 clicks on a 6501 during a recent month, but I really wouldn't recommend it long term. It did not stop -at all- the whole month and we ran it over 10 hours a day.

I think 120K per month on a 6501 is achievable as we regularly do over that with no major problems. I will say that you do need good support and a well trained operator. If you have an operator with the mentality that you press the green button and it all should "just work" then the 6501 is not for you (but I'm not sure what is).

We run gloss paper every day and a lot of it, no major issues that I'm aware of as long as you stick to good quality paper 115gsm and above (don't even try the lighter weight coated papers, they won't work with the machine).

I can't give any insight into the X700. We've had 6 Xerox machines so far and only one was a complete lemon, so I'd be surprised if the X700 wasn't a good machine. The only other thing is that your 120,000 12x18 impressions per month is -way- over the recommended duty cycle, so personally I'd want it in writing from Xerox that they will support your volumes for the length of time that you intend on keeping the machine.

Hope that helps.

 

[X33]

Telling me what the spec sheet says is of no use, I can read. I am looking for information based on first hand experience. I had a KM6500 and the spec sheet claimed a lot of things when I purchased it. In reality I had over 100 service calls in about 6 months. The spec sheet said nothing about the $300,000 lawsuit I ended up in because the dealer wouldn't take the piece of crap back.

I think you need to trust what the specs in writing say. That's your guarantee. If the machine does not perform as it is specified in writing, you have a case. The papers you agree to and sign is what matters.

I'm mostly concern about your volume of 120k a month. I don't think you can get someone to guarantee that an X700 or KM6500 will produce that volume consistently every month. I'll be surprised if you do. You may want to think about a "bigger" unit or more than 1 unit.

 

[ShortRunMagazines]

I'd love a "bigger" unit, but I cant find one that works out financially. I know that if the CED says x and the machine can't perform to that standard I have a case. That being said, I've already been in one lawsuit over a copier, and I'd like to avoid that again.

 

[Possumgal]

If you want to run gloss text on a Xerox 700, you'd better have good climate control, expecially if running duplex. You'll get lots of paper jams and doubles. Lotsa fun going through printed sheets to find out how many you have to rerun.

 

[Craig]

I don't quite understand how a "bigger" machine wouldn't work out. If you can consolidate 3 machines into 1 and get the work done in 1 shift vs 2, plus open up new opportunities, how couldn't it make sense. Is your labor free? You need to look at more than just the lease payment and the click charges. Personally I would go with a Xerox 7002/8002 or Canon 7000VP or multiple KM 6501's. I would get EVERYTHING in writing and get plenty of samples of your jobs on your paper.

 

[Steve_S]

If you have first hand experience with either machine (outside of "I sold one once") I'd really appreciate an answer.

I am not a tech or a salesman, and I do not portray one on TV. We have two Oce CS series - one 650 and one 665, which is the equivalent to the 6500 and 6501. I would agree with previous postings that long term 120k on one machine will end up biting you. We started with one Oce and eventually replaced our Xerox DC 6060 with the second unit. Service is going to be your key. We had a KM6500 and the techs could not keep it running. Same machine, with an Oce badge, and their techs have them running great. Xerox tried to sell us the 700 before we bought the second Oce, however, when we presented samples of our papers we run daily to their service manager, he refused to sign off on support. That included 100# gloss cover, 100# gloss text, and 80# gloss text. Oce wrote us a service guarantee both times and we bought their machine. So make sure you have someone willing to guarantee in writing that they will support you after they have your check. I would also seriously recommend what previous commenters said about having 2 machines with your volume.