Standard Finishing
4OverXerox

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

CRON’s inking system to be demonstrated at PRINT

Collapse
Canon
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Erik Nikkanen View Post

    The whole issue of ink control over the years has been a Stormy in a C cup, but positive ink feed will Trump that. :-)
    Hmmmm, tempest in a D cup.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Erik Nikkanen View Post

      Even if the EZC does not have true positive displacement pumps, the density would be consistent and independent of water settings, because the changes in water can not affect the pumping rate. The reason to want a positive displacement pump is so it can be predictable. A non positive displacement pump is not predictable even though the output can be relatively steady at times.
      Print18 starts Sunday. So if people get a chance to see the EZC run and ask questions, that would be great.

      Suggested questions.

      Ask: Have they tested the consistency of the print density when changing the water settings?

      Even if the pumps are not true positive displacement pumps in the EZC, they should basically have not seen density changes when changing the water settings. It is possible that they never actually tested this since they don't seem to claim this capability clearly.

      If they have not actually tested this capability, they may not know.

      Ask: Will the density change if the water setting are changed?

      If they say the density will not change, then they probably have tested this.

      If they say the density will change then they probably didn't test for this and then you can ask another question.

      Ask: If the density changes when water is adjusted, how can Cron claim that the system is predictable since one would have variable density outcomes for the same ink feed setting?

      It would be very interesting to hear their answers. It is possible that those representing Cron in their booth don't really understand the capabilities and would give conflicting answers. I expect that the right answer would be that the density is independent of water settings for their system.

      Of course there are other questions of interest.

      A chronic problem of most existing ink pumping fountains is that they have a very slow response time of density changes, when making changes to ink feed rate. Especially slow with low coverage.

      Ask: Is the EZC slower to respond to changes in density than conventional ink fountains?

      This is important because a slow response is going to affect the ability to make short set ups especially when starting from inaccurate presetting data.

      Different inks.

      Ask: Is the ink output affected by differences in ink viscosity?

      Ask: Does the EZC require special inks?

      Ask: Can if run with conventional and UV inks?

      Colour changes as Green Printer has suggested could be a problem.

      Ask: How easy and how fast is it to make colour changes?

      I am sure if you get to see the EZC run, you will also have lots of questions of your own. Hope you can share your views here.

      Thanks for any responses to your experiences at Print18.


      Comment


      • #18
        "Although it can be Stormy in Chicago I’m sure the Trump won’t be there so maybe it’s worth you driving down?"

        "The whole issue of ink control over the years has been a Stormy in a C cup, but positive ink feed will Trump that."


        So now were relegated to talking politics in code?! ha

        Comment


        • #19
          Erik. go to the show. Get the information you need first hand. Observe the device, come to your own conclusion. Second hand information will never satisfy you.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Green Printer View Post
            Erik. go to the show. Get the information you need first hand. Observe the device, come to your own conclusion. Second hand information will never satisfy you.
            GP, I don't need to see it working. I have a pretty good idea of what it can do. With more details on its internal construction etc., which probably would not be available at the show, I would be able to analyze its performance potential, strengths and weaknesses, even more.

            The questions I provided were not for me. They were for the forum. For many years I have been stating that the critical problem of ink water balance was solved and that it has been tested to confirm this. IMO, it is the most critical problem with offset printing but I have found surprisingly little interest. It is possible that people don't believe me so it would be good if they can see some results from others in the industry.

            If people are not interested in fundamental solutions, that is something that can not be corrected.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Erik Nikkanen View Post

              GP, I don't need to see it working. I have a pretty good idea of what it can do. With more details on its internal construction etc., which probably would not be available at the show, I would be able to analyze its performance potential, strengths and weaknesses, even more.

              The questions I provided were not for me. They were for the forum. For many years I have been stating that the critical problem of ink water balance was solved and that it has been tested to confirm this. IMO, it is the most critical problem with offset printing but I have found surprisingly little interest. It is possible that people don't believe me so it would be good if they can see some results from others in the industry.

              If people are not interested in fundamental solutions, that is something that can not be corrected.
              You may be correct in saying that it's the most critical problem, but stating that you (or anyone) can completely solve it through a change in mechanical design, is very hard to believe. I think that consumables are a significant part of the equation.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by alibryan View Post

                You may be correct in saying that it's the most critical problem, but stating that you (or anyone) can completely solve it through a change in mechanical design, is very hard to believe. I think that consumables are a significant part of the equation.
                I can understand why you can not believe how important the mechanical design is but you have not had the opportunity to see anything else than how presses are designed now and in the past that use a ductor, a 170 year old technology that does not work well.

                Yes, consumables are important related to the quality of how the image area is inked and how the non image area is not inked. But the amount of ink going to the image area on average is not related to the chemistry. It is basically a mechanical problem of how the ink is fed into the press.

                That is why I hope people get a chance to see the EZC run and ask them the right questions. It is very possible that Cron has not done the testing to show and confirm the science. They don't discuss this in their marketing materials which is surprising. If I would be showing a technology that demonstrated that the ink water balance issue was a non issue, then I would market the hell out of that. But they seem to be quiet on that point, which makes me wonder what they really know or how well they designed the technology.

                Also some of their marketing information, IMO is wrong but that's marketing. One can say almost anything in marketing a product. How many decades has one seen some marketing statement saying that the performance of a product is "the best possible". One can not improve on a best possible technology but they keep coming up with another best possible technology. Maybe they leave out some important info. The best possible (based on our poor understanding of how things should work. :-o )

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Erik Nikkanen View Post

                  Yes, consumables are important related to the quality of how the image area is inked and how the non image area is not inked. But the amount of ink going to the image area on average is not related to the chemistry. It is basically a mechanical problem of how the ink is fed into the press.
                  This is not entirely true.

                  In knowing that you think that, I now understand why you may believe that you've completely solved the ink/water balance issue. I don't think that's possible, however, without also addressing the ink, and the water.

                  Correct ink/water balance is not measured or achieved, by just the amount of ink going to the image area.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by alibryan View Post

                    This is not entirely true.

                    In knowing that you think that, I now understand why you may believe that you've completely solved the ink/water balance issue. I don't think that's possible, however, without also addressing the ink, and the water.

                    Correct ink/water balance is not measured or achieved, by just the amount of ink going to the image area.
                    I agree with you 100%

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      With very few moving parts and ink fed under pressure, EZcolor is inherently reliable, maintaining high levels of uptime for the press.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by jamesandersonicb View Post
                        With very few moving parts and ink fed under pressure, EZcolor is inherently reliable, maintaining high levels of uptime for the press.
                        Yes, the ink is under pressure but I was hoping for some more details. Just having the ink under pressure does not ensure its consistency. Do you have any details of the EZC technology that you can share? Thanks.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by jamesandersonicb View Post
                          With very few moving parts and ink fed under pressure, EZcolor is inherently reliable, maintaining high levels of uptime for the press.
                          Are you using it in actual production?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            It is extremely easy to use due to its creative design and intuitive operation.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              jamesandersonicb
                              How long have you been working with one of these systems, I would be interested to hear about the system's reliability and what type of reduction of makeready times are you seeing

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by jamesandersonicb View Post
                                It is extremely easy to use due to its creative design and intuitive operation.
                                You still haven't said if you're actually using it. You could just be quoting from Cron's marketing material.

                                Comment

                                4OverStandard FinishingDuploSmartsoft (Presswise)CanonKBATharsternAvantiXerox

                                Presswise Article

                                Collapse

                                Automated Order Status Tracking
                                In PressWise Workflow Solution


                                Presswise order status
                                Quick overview of the order status tracking feature on PressWise’s automated workflow solution

                                Link to Video

                                4OverStandard FinishingDuploCanonSmartsoft (Presswise)TharsternKBAAvantiUltimateXerox

                                What's Going On

                                Collapse

                                There are currently 5839 users online. 96 members and 5743 guests.

                                Most users ever online was 6,597 at 10:25 AM on 04-20-2018.

                                Working...
                                X