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  • Stay Open Inks and Rub Resistance

    My friends down in the press room are running stay open inks, whose will remain anonymous, for now. The inks "set" fine, and have been on press for about 6 months. The press is a 5 color half size, no coater. The problem is scuffing with any handling after printing, marking, rubbing, etc. But the inks are "set" to the touch. To fix a job, or guarantee no problems in post processing, the sheets need to be coated aqueous off line, more handling.

    So here's the question. Is this technology aimed at presses with in line aqueous coaters? Was the printer ill-advised to run these inks without a coater? Or, are these inks not performing correctly. Should they dry hard and scuff free?

    I'm asking for some opinions based on personal experience.
    Thanks,
    John Lind
    Cranberry Township, PA
    724-776-4718

  • #2
    Re: Stay Open Inks and Rub Resistance

    John,
    Stay open inks drive a LOT of people crazy. The biggest problem that I see comes from not washing up frequently enough or in some cases not washing up at all. The ink salesmen comes in a pushes the time savings of never having to wash up but you risk getting all kinds of contamination and water {fountain solution} backing up in the ink fountain.
    I have seen ink fountains that were litterally half full of water, spray powder and paper residue from never being cleaned out.
    The inks usually do perform as advertised but only when cleaned up on a regular basis.

    Tom Grizzle
    Corporate Technical Service
    Allied Pressroom Products

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Stay Open Inks and Rub Resistance

      give me a nice skins over in 5 hours ink any day. we were using flint about 2 years ago. any time I would run books I would have to add a drier to the ink. they would fold fine, but the signatures would rub in the sticher.

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      • #4
        Re: Stay Open Inks and Rub Resistance

        "Stay Open" properties don't necessarily effect rub, in my experience. Sounds like the ink is not well suited to your purposes or is not being utilized correctly.

        rich

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        • #5
          Re: Stay Open Inks and Rub Resistance

          This is a reply to Rich, and to myself!
          The stay open inks are gone....replaced by hard dry inks. Scuffing issues are gone too. While dealing with this problem, I don't recall any ink company saying "Here, try my hard dry stay open inks....". Instead, they would suggest not to use Stay Open for silk, dull, or matte coated sheets. These make up a lot of the incoming paper in this shop, so the stay open are gone. On a side bar, there was a large job on uncoated paper, hundreds of thousands of copies, where the press operator put the stay open back on, with drying stimulator in the fountain, and those sheets didn't even smear when they hit the delivery. It was a good chance to get rid of the stay open ink.
          Just our experience, yours is obviously different.
          All the best, nice guy,
          John Lind
          Cranberry Township, PA
          724-776-4718

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          • #6
            Re: Stay Open Inks and Rub Resistance

            The glycols in fountain solutions are usually the smoking gun. Glycols NEVER dry. Many fountain solutions have a total glycol content of over 30%. When the stay open inks are used with a fountain solution that has a low total glycol content of 5% or less they work.

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            • #7
              Re: Stay Open Inks and Rub Resistance

              John,

              I was about to post about issues we're having trying to get inks to completely set. We can get them to touch dry in 20-30 minutes, smudge-free (pressing hard with finger and wiping the sheet) in about 2 hours, but put it under the guilotine with 4.5 tonnes of clamp pressure and it's still setting off 5 days later.

              This was with a mineral based ink, not even soy-based.

              I've been talking to a chemist about it and he says to try a water-based dryer additive, but I'm not that confident. The next option is running oxidation inks which I'm not keen on at all. Kills my press, because ink build up on impressions, bearers, grippers, etc hardens like liquid nails! Clean duct every day, which loses me an hour and a half per week of production.

              So you have managed to get an duct-fresh (that's what they call 'open' over here in Australia) that has a hard dry/quick setting? How does it go under the guilotine clamp pressure? (4500 pounds) Do areas where there is a solid on the front leave a faint ghost on the back near the edges of the trim?

              Mr Berger: I'll have a look at my fount and talk to my chemist to see how much Glycol we have in it.

              I'm not sure whether many people know that Pat has truly cracked the drying problem with non-UV inks after a good 10 years of experimentation.

              Like, print a job on Matt stock, heavy solids, no coating (was it no IR aswell, I can't remember) and have it cut, folded and packed within 4-5 hours. With no setting off problems.

              When Mr Berger speaks, Dwane listens carefully...

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Stay Open Inks and Rub Resistance

                I will have to agree with Pat B. We run an ink that has 72% vegetable content in it, it is a stay open ink and has no added driers and we have no problem getting jobs to dry for cutting. With or without AQ, coated our uncoated stock. BUT we also use a fountain solution that is low VOC and contains low to zero glycol content. Most of out print is medium to heavy 4 color coverage.

                Robert

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                • #9
                  Re: Stay Open Inks and Rub Resistance

                  Robert,

                  Thanks for your post! So when you say you have no problems getting jobs to dry for cutting, how long must you wait before putting it under the clamp at full pressure? Let's say a 350-400gsm card. (since it requires more clamp pressure)

                  I've just discovered by looking at Pat Bergers profile, that there's another company called [Best Chem Supply|http://www.bestchemsupply.com|Check It Out!] associated with his profile. (Pat, sorry to talk about you in the third person).

                  I'd hazzard a guess that this is the same stuff that Pat uses...

                  The [Genesis WETSTONE+SF|http://shop.bestchemsupply.com/produ...&productId=16] looks like it might be suitable for our operation. It's also a one-step fountain solution, which I remember someone else commenting that for good screen stability on press you need a one-step fountain solution.

                  OK, I've done a little more research before I finished this post and have found out that we'd need an ink which is based on "Thin Ink Film Technology", which has less fillers so that it is compatible with the fountain solution. Interesting to read that modern paper and plates were designed for thin ink film inks and that when ink and water is above the grain on plates it begins to be a problem. Very interesting.

                  Now, where do I get think Ink Film inks from? : )

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Stay Open Inks and Rub Resistance

                    Dwane,

                    When I say we have no cutting problems I mean we can cut a 100# gloss book sheet with AQ having 300+ ink coverage within an hour off press. Uncoated stock line work run the job and cut it. Uncoated stock process ink med. to heavy coverage run the job in the morning cut the job in the afternoon and ship. You are on the right track with the Genesis product. It has made a world of difference for us. There are a few ink companies out there who make this type of ink. Gans Ink is one of them it is their SoyGren series, may be Pat B. can add to the list.

                    Robert

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Stay Open Inks and Rub Resistance

                      Robert,

                      I've been looking on Gansink.com and I can't seem to find the SoyGren (or SoyGreen?) product on there or anything about thin ink film technology.

                      I did find some products under blending inks "SoyPlus" and under Process inks "Nu-Centura Low VOC". Not sure if that's the one.

                      I do know that Heidelberg have an Ink (toyo rebadge) which is high pigment, meaning you run a thinner layer of ink, but that might not be the same thing since it would still have 'fillers' and 'drying agents' and posisbly the insoluable solvents in them?

                      Do you use Thin Ink Film Technology? If so, what brand of ink do you use?

                      Thanks again for posting.

                      regards,

                      Dwane.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Stay Open Inks and Rub Resistance

                        Dwane,

                        We do use The Thin Ink Film Technology, and it works great. It is not only environmental and health friendly it out performs all other systems out there hands down. I can use the same ink on all substraights. That is right, I don't have 5 -6 different ink types in the ink cabinet depending on the type of paper we use we only have one ink and we print on everything form onion skin to 30pt. board. When we first started to use this ink and fountain solution system we were told we were nuts, it could not work, fortunetly we did not listen to the nay sayers. The idea made sense to me and it has worked great every since. Gans does supply us with the SoyGren series of ink but you might have to call the L.A. CA branch to get more information about it.

                        Robert

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Stay Open Inks and Rub Resistance

                          Dwayne:
                          Where did you read that blurb about Thin Ink Film Technology Ink?

                          John Lind
                          Cranberry Township, PA
                          724-776-4718

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Stay Open Inks and Rub Resistance

                            John,

                            Here is the link for the Genesis [Thin Ink Film Technology|http://www.genesischemistry.com/technologies.htm]

                            These guys are fountain solution manufacturers, not the ink company. But since their Wetstone fountain solution is radically different from other solvent-based products, the ink can be adjusted in order to get the most benefits from the solution.

                            Gansink so far, are the only ones that I know of that manufacture Thin Ink Film Inks. I've been in contact with them and we're arranging to get some samples for testing. These inks, I'm told, will not work with conventional fountain solution.

                            In fact they've been specifically tested to run with Wetstone Fountain solution from Genesis Chemistry.

                            Here are the links for the sites:
                            [www.genesischemistry.com]
                            [www.gansink.com]

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Stay Open Inks and Rub Resistance

                              Robert,

                              I've contacted Gansink and Genesis Chemistry to see whether or not they can supply me the products. Gans have got back to me and can get me some samples of it, so that's good. Still waiting on Genesis at the moment.

                              Now, I have to ask. Are there any setbacks with the system? I understand that it's meant to run without alcohol and doesn't use any substitutes, but do we need to replace any rollers, like in the dampening system?

                              The reason I ask, is that I've heard for running alcohol free, you need to replace metering rollers with a different type of rubber etc.

                              Or is there any, "It works great, but you have to do this and it's not suitable in this situation"?

                              Cheers!

                              Dwane.

                              Comment

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