P A N T O N E Thoughts on 9/11

[D Ink Man]

Is there anyone out there that prints (any printing type) that does not encounter the usage of Pantone guides in their work environment? It is felt that it will be hard to find anyone on the planet, any printer worldwide, that doesn't utilize PMS to some extent. If you use Pantone, could you please offer any comments to its worthniness.

I will start the commentary with but one example, PANTONE 123. If possible. please compare the coated guide versus the uncoated guide. Pantone claims this 123 is printed with the same ink at the same ink film. Hmmm.

Thank you for further comments and experiences in regards to Pantone.

 

[GazKL440]

Pantone books should never be shown to a client..... 'nuff said

Comparing PMS123 on uncoated and coated stocks is like most coated-uncoated comparos... the same ink on different substrates will look slightly different, ever done business cards on gloss stock and letter heads on bond for one client?? I guess it would have to do with the reflective qualities of coated versus uncoated that can give a different result with unchanged ink films appearing cleaner or stronger or whatever...

As for the worthiness of pantone.... well it does provide an industry standard that works well enough, and the guides do make it easy to mix up when required, and sometimes its amusing to compare an old copy of a job with a swatch and wonder what page the bloke who printed that was looking at...

 

[D Ink Man]

Sir GazKL440,

Pantone 123 is NOT like most coated versus uncoated comparisons for a single ink entity. It is night and day by comparison. Sir, which edition and printing of the Pantone guides are you viewing and comparing? It is felt that it is a monstrous problem for printers and ink makers, not talking about the print customers.

One other thing, compare the ink film thickness of base line Rhodamine versus Reflex, in the best manner you can. Do a simple press test of the solid colors. See what you find.

In defense of Pantone a bit, they realize the shortcomings of the Pantone Master system which has led to the creation of the GOE Pantone system. Unfortunately, our industry has not latched onto the GOE system which would allieviate many of our Pantone problems.

Also unfortunate, is that even if GOE catches on, the monster of the standard Pantone guide will still exist. The only way to tame the beast would be to discontinue the current standard guide. We all will not live long enough to see it completely die, but it could be diminished if GOE would take flight.

 

[GazKL440]

Im not viewing any particular edition of the pantone book, i know from having PRINTED it sir... many times on different stocks and having mixed it many times too not just ordering some tins... its not a problem for the men on machines, just another job on the list, and at the end of the day the print customer is THE MOST IMPORTANT link in the chain. They generally dont care HOW we achieve a saleable job, just that its delivered on time in good order...so the apparent pros and cons of the pantone sysem are a fairly moot point sir.

 

[D Ink Man]

Have the "men on the machines" print Pantone Reflex Blue on a 60# Offset Uncoated Sheet. Have a form with SOLID coverage run in line, (the same printing channel), with some HIGHLIGHT screens (say 10-25%). Make sure that you run the Pantone Reflex Blue to spectrophotometric or EQUAL DENSITY to the Pantone Uncoated Guide. How do your HIGHLIGHT screens look and print SIR? Would your print customer really be satisfied with the print job? Hope you now understand this. If not, hopefully another forum member will comment on this subject to break our stalemate. Respectfully and nuf said.

 

[gordo]

To: D Ink Man

There's some more info here: Quality In Print: Custom, Spot, Brand, and Pantone Colors - part 3 of 4
However, in general, Pantone inks are formulated to be printed as solids - NOT halftone screened. As a result, depending on your press chemistry/condition and the particular ink you are using you may, or may not have press issues. If you want to screen a PMS ink you need to discuss that need specifically with whoever is formulating your ink.
Also, with Reflex Blue, most ink vendors offer an alternative that provided better printability while delivering the same perceived hue. Again, if you're going to halftone screen the color - talk to your ink supplier.

best, gordon p

 

[D Ink Man]

Dear Gordo, Thank you for your reply sir.

I understand that PMS spots are suppose to run as solids, but sir, in the real world, many times you will run into this situation where thay are screened and run as solid on the same form. I guess we could blame the designers, but they normally have little knowledge of the potential problems that can be encountered when lithographing.

Gordo, one other thing. Could you please offer some comment on the Pantone 123 situation, COATED guide vs. UNCOATED guide and a one ink to satisfy both theory. Much appreciated. And thank you for your thread on Quality In Print: Custom, Spot, Brand, and Pantone Colors - part 3 of 4 . You have always been very helpful, intelligible with providing accurate information at Print planet. Thank you for all your efforts and education.

 

[rapid3]

The main reason that coated & uncoated PMS colors appear different is that the
PANTONE system is based on using the same ink and showing how it looks on
different substrates. It is not based upon Lab values for color. If it were, we would have
to have a different PANTONE mix for every different stock that was printed on. As for
the reference to REFLEX blue. PMS colors have different print characteristics than do
process colors, so you need different plates curves for them.

 

[gordo]

Dear Gordo, Thank you for your reply sir.

I understand that PMS spots are suppose to run as solids, but sir, in the real world, many times you will run into this situation where thay are screened and run as solid on the same form. I guess we could blame the designers, but they normally have little knowledge of the potential problems that can be encountered when lithographing.

Gordo, one other thing. Could you please offer some comment on the Pantone 123 situation, COATED guide vs. UNCOATED guide and a one ink to satisfy both theory. Much appreciated.

Correct - but there is no one to blame, there should be just an awareness about the characteristics of the tools one works with. IMHO it is up to the printer to recognize during the sales, or quotation, or job planning stage that the project will have PMS colors screened back. That should raise a "red flag" and cause the potential issue to be dealt with before it gets to press. This is not a Pantone problem – it is an ink formulation issue.

As rapid3 notes: "The main reason that coated & uncoated PMS colors appear different is that the
PANTONE system is based on using the same ink and showing how it looks on different substrates. It is not based upon Lab values for color."

Pantone colors are based on ink mixing formulae - not CIEL*a*b* values. Again, IMHO, it is up to the printer to determine/clarify the customer's color target and then deliver on that expectation.

best, gordon p

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Not to argue with what is said, but to share from a practical point of view:

The biggest problem with pantone is the lack of education (or rather the stuck up attitude of design houses) that lack willingnes to understand the limitations of the real world. There are also a number of substrates that are not matched by any book. The problem with Pantone is two fold:
1) It has limits as to defining a colour, mainly due to the designer omitting the conditions for the colour (eg coated) and a slackness in creating profile manuals.
2) Once the customers need is clear then the time (and willingness to pay for it) to acheive the desired result.

The same problem occurs with other corporate colours, for the same reason. Most common is to find corporate identity defined for coated stock even if corporate printed matter is to be printed exclusively on uncoated.
Here also the problem is that many teaching in design schools lack real world understanding/experience.

 

[D Ink Man]

Still would appreciate a reply on "PANTONE 123". Please! Pantone states that this is the same ink printed at the same ink film. PANTONE 123 COATED looks like a tinted back yellow that has 30-40% transparent white in it. PANTONE 123 UNCOATED looks like a full strength orange. This is where the problem lies, and Pantone needs to be accountable. And this is the point I am seeking some kind of agreement on. If you do not access to view what I'm talking about, I will gladly send you tear out color chips of the latest Pantone edition CTD.vs. UNCOATED. Please be open minded and put yourselves in our shoes for but for a brief moment. D Ink Man.

 

[D Ink Man]

Still need to understand PANTONE 123 and its accountability. Anyone, Please!

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Open a can of Pantone 123, smear it on a coated paper, smear it on equally thick on an uncoated, you will see as in the swatch books! What do they need to be accountable for?? It is in some ways similar to the issue of wet and dry paint being different colour. Or a pebble being different in the water and when you let it dry!

This is why you need to use the right book for the right paper.

 

[D Ink Man]

Pantone 123 Coated versus Uncoated stills needs to be addressed. If you need current color chips, I'll send them to anyone. Pantone has to be held accountable for this and it must be understood as a very real problem. I have ink on the bottom of my shoes, and if you did too, you would fully appreciate my plea. Thanks for being open minded gentlemen.

 

[D Ink Man]

Dear Lukas Engqvist.

Pantone says that these are the "SAME INK" printed at the "SAME INK FILM THICKNESS". I was not born yesterday and the moon is not made from green cheese. Please try to see this perspective and understand my point of view. I am listening to you and have done the same. D Ink Man

 

[meddington]

I agree that the difference between the Pantone 123 coated and uncoated swatches are dramatically different to the eye, but I attribute this to the absorbency properties of the paper rather than formulation or ink film difference. Other colors show this phenomena as well, but most not as profound as 123 and the family of yellow-orange colors around it.

 

[gordo]

To D Ink Man;

Unfortunately I'm about two weeks away from my Pantone swatch books ('cause I'm in Chicago at Print 09) so I can't compare the colors you're seeing, however, I thought I'd throw another wrench in the monkey works - the uncoated paper that Pantone used has a much higher optical brightening agent content than the coated paper (you can see the difference in the image taken under "black" light here: Quality In Print: The issues of Optical Brightening Agents in paper and ink - part 2 of 5 ).
That will effect the comparison between coated and uncoated papers of the hues that you see under different lighting conditions - especially where the ink formulation calls for a large portion of "white" to make the ink.

best, gordon p

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Still need to understand PANTONE 123 and its accountability. Anyone, Please!

Inks do not have specific colour. Inks filter out wavelengths of light and the colour one percieves is a result of how the light was filtered by the sum of the different local condiitons in the ink and paper structure.

Some inks can change hue with changes in ink film thickness while others do not. This is related to how the light is filtered across the whole spectrum. Inks do not lay down on a substrate in a perfectly even ink film. Even on a coated stock, the ink film will be uneven at a small scale. With flexo or dry offset, areas with very thick ink can result at the edges of plate and substrate contact. The thick ink areas can sometimes throw the hue off considerably.

Basically you get the colour you get when printing an ink on a substrate. It is not a simple matter of adding the colour of the substrate and the colour of the ink. Physically it is a very complicated situation and that is one reason it is very difficult to model accurately.

Just accept what you get. Don't let it frustrate you. If you don't like what it looks like, go to another PMS ink.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Yes SAME INK not SAME COLOUR!
Blueberry juice is red purple the stain on a white napkin is bluish black...
This is the reason I wrote in my first post that it is an issue of education.

Even process inks are different. As with CMYK values. And as such yes Pantone is a limited way to describe colour.
Look at other measurements. In the metric system we measure freezing and boiling point... then science needed to redefine, because the preassure, affects the scale. But also you will find an alchohol thermometer and a mercury thermometer will show different temperatures in the mid scales, none is wrong, only the definition has to include the kind of thermometer.
Same goes with pantone.
If you want to describe a colour you will have to define it as L*a*b* and a viewing condition.
For many of our corporate clients we will take out a second pantone colour to show a better match for uncoated paper. This is where those involved in making corporate design must learn, or be humble enough to ask those that have taken the time to learn about colour.

We can not change physics, but understanding can help us get the results we want.
If you look at art books from a decade ago you will see how far we have come.

Another example is the yellow tone that comes in EPSON inkjets, depending on paper it can be almost anything from lime yellow to a cadmium yellow. Is EPSON accountable for that? Or do we just need to bite the bullet and make two ICC profiles?

If the colours appeared identical there would not be the need for two swatch books. There would not be the need for 123C and 123U where C and U are descriptors to help you understand what colour is intended. Now again comes the issue of those design houses with branding books, many don't even know there is a difference.

So letts assume that Pantone would take care of this... what is the way to go? Wich colour is correct? Should they now make 2 recipies one to give the appearance of 123c and one to give the appearance of 123u? Who will go and clean up all those corporate profiles and have them defined correct?

 

[D Ink Man]

Discontinuing the current Pantone guide, would be an excellent start. Pantone should only offer and license GOE. And I cannot wait for 2 weeks until Gordo gets to feast his eyes on PANTONE 123.