Best Folder with Scorer for my situation

[raminmd]

Hi all,

We don't really do a ton of folding but we do a fair amount. Majority of our stuff is folding 12 x 9 - 80# Gloss Cover sheet into a 6 x 9. We fold about 25,000 to 30,000 of these a month (not one job but a number of jobs). We also do a fair amount of tri-fold jobs (8.5 x 11 text/cover weight paper into #10) and some bi-fold jobs (11 x 17 cover stock folded in half).

Currently, we print everything in house and then get all our scoring and folding done outside (for jobs that require scoring). We have a couple of friction feed desktop folders but they are not very easy to use for a lot of folding and I don't have a scoring solution anyway for most of my jobs.

I really want to get a decent machine for my use internally. I don't need any big floor model equipment (like a Baum 2020 etc.) They are just out of my price range and we don't need something that heavy duty.

When I look at used equipment available, I see the following at decent prices (2k to 5k).

MBO T49
MBM 1400
Rosback 220 (scoring unit only). I will still have to use my desktop folder once it is scored.

What would be the best option for me? Will any of the above units work. I am not even sure if I can score on the t49 or 1400. Am I being even realistic about scoring/folding them in house with a 5k budget. Ideally, I would like to get a unit or a couple of units (if scoring and folding separately) that are air-fed and can handle my jobs easily.

Thanks.

 

[Happyprinter]

Looks like you've done a little research on machines available. Remember, it's a buyers market right now and if you search you can pickup a nice floor model for next to nothing. There are alot of Rosback 220's available for a very good rate. Keep your eyes open for shops that are closing, auctions or local equipment dealers. Another shop I know of just picked up a Baum floor model for $2500.oo and believe it or not it runs great. So dont be in a hurry and get something that you will be happy with. There are alot of used equipment dealers all across the country, make some calls. You'll be suprised at whats available.

 

[raminmd]

Thanks for the reply. I do need to get something in my shop soon as the current system of sending everything out does result in delays for us. I should have mentioned that all our printing is digital. Ideally a Morgana digifold is a great solution but the price is just ridiculous. Are you aware of any affordable scoring/folding solutions for digital print? While the Rosback is adequate (the shop we send everything to uses a Rosback 220), it is still not perfect as paper still cracks.

 

[Craig]

We looked at a Morgana 5000 and a Baum 2020, and went with the Baum, added a couple of Ultimate Scores and are happy as clams. Ours was new, but I'm sure you can find a used folder with an 8 page and adjustable slitter shafts and do the same thing. The floor folder will be 10 times more productive too.

 

[ondemandbindery]

Look for a T-49. This a MBO workhorse. I use the Technifold scoring units and have had minimal problems with scoring anything. A machine like this should open your market up. In fact, the T-49 I have just collects dust. It is a beautiful machine and if you are interested in one shoot me an email. Whatever you do, I would avoid a tabletop as that will limit some of the projects you can process.

Good luck,
John Weaver

 

[GWSALES]

Unfortunately there is no small folder that will do a good job scoring. Unless you can make room for a baum 18" or 20" folder and use the Technifold device you need an offline solution. If you are printing digitaly this explains why the Rosback 220 does a poor job and your stock is cracking. A rotary score wheel plows through your stock and toner will crack using this proccess, offset inks are applied wet and penetrate the paper almost eleminating cracking. What you would need is a Creaser with a matrix die. These machines retail in the 8k-21k range depending on speeds and capabilties. Check out the Graphic Whizard Graphic Whizard - Products - Creasing/Impact Scoring Systems - CreaseMaster PLUS or the Morgana autocreaser.

 

[Alex@Challenge]

Something else to consider when you try to bring this work in-house: who is going to set-up and run your jobs? The MBO folder is a great machine (as long as it is in good condition), but if you don't have a competent operator, you will fight it more than you know! Folding is an art - that's why good folder operators (or set-up people) make the money they do. That being said - what you are trying to do is very simple. There are multiple ways to do what you're doing, but you have to sit and evaluate what the costs are doing it in-house vs. sending it to someone who knows what they're doing.

If you go the used folder route, I HIGHLY suggest you get it locally AND get full training AND they are authorized/trained to support your machine. If not, you're throwing away $5,000 plus all the waste created by your investment.

 

[Craig]

You'll do yourself an injustice if you don't look at the Ultimate Score from D&R Bindery. I put it head to head with the tri-creaser and it beat it hands down with the output from our DC8000AP folding both with the grain and cross grain on our Baum 2020. They even flew in to prove to me that it wasn't some sort of creasing voodoo!

 

[raminmd]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I do have a very good operator on staff. He has more than 16 years experience in running a lot of print equipment including MBO and Baum folders. I am leaning more and more towards getting either a Baum or MBO (used ) with an Ultimate Score. John (ondemandbindery), I sent you a PM about your T-49. Can you please respond?

Thanks.

 

[ondemandbindery]

You'll do yourself an injustice if you don't look at the Ultimate Score from D&R Bindery. I put it head to head with the tri-creaser and it beat it hands down with the output from our DC8000AP folding both with the grain and cross grain on our Baum 2020. They even flew in to prove to me that it wasn't some sort of creasing voodoo!

I would be curious as to how a D&R works against the Technifold stuff. I am thinking about getting a couple for my 35mm shaft folders. I have real good succes with Technifold stuff but I am always interested in something better. As for buying a used folder, it is absolutely a buyers market out there. I have seen a T-49 with a knife fold attachment. What a great tool to have in your Arsenal. I totally agree with having the experience on the machine but if you have someone who has the skill that is the major battle to all this. Try to locate a local service rep and try to feel them out. If you like your local service rep and he specializes in one machine, find out what it is and put that into consideration. But as for buying new, well I have opinions about that. As much as the profit margins have decreased in our market I sometimes feel you can avoid a hefty payout for a new machine and buy used. This is certainly a whole different topic but there is no way I could stomach much less afford a new payment. And don't let someone convince you that some touch screen setup will eliminate problems. Give me a good pilefed against a horizon per say and for short run basic folding I will put that Horizon down and real quick. Good luck and let me know if you get a machine with 30mm shafts. I may have some stuff of interest to you.

 

[Craig]

Ondemand - When I was in the market for our folder last year, I had Baum run samples on their demo unit using the Technifold, the Ultimate scores and a traditional score wheel. Paper was 100lb gloss text with solid 2" bands of different colors running across the sheet, some light, some dark. Theses were printed on our Xerox DC8000AP. The sheets were folding with and cross grain. The Technifold showed nearly as much toner cracking as a traditional score wheel, the Ultimate Score had very little cracking, only in the bands that were very dark (Navy Blue and Rich Black). I was so skeptical that Baum asked Denny from D&R to meet me at the Baum demo room to show me that this wasn't smoke and mirrors.

 

[NTXSOL]

We have a small digital print shop and we have never done anything but crease our printed materials. We tried sending our material out to be folded and scored before but unfortunately we had a huge problem with cracking. I haven't had a chance to read all the reply's from everybody in this thread but if you dont mind creasing before you fold or folding the materials after they have been creased we found the Count EZ creaser to be a great introductory machine. You can spend 15k on just a creaser and you can also spend plenty of money on the tri-creaser solution from technifold, especially if you are doing tri-folds.

We are going with an inline creaser and uv coater solution in our shop and are going to be letting our ez creaser go within your price range if that is something you would be interested in.

We are always looking for a good folder for our shop as we definitely do our fair share of creasing and folding but unfortunately we don't have the room for a large folder as well as a creaser and all the other machines we have and we realized that there is no alternative to creasing for us.

Econocrease is nearby us here in the texas area and the guy that we spoke to before from there is very knowledgeable and can work with you on finding a folder and install the econocrease unit in the folder for you.

 

[ondemandbindery]

We have a small digital print shop and we have never done anything but crease our printed materials. We tried sending our material out to be folded and scored before but unfortunately we had a huge problem with cracking. I haven't had a chance to read all the reply's from everybody in this thread but if you dont mind creasing before you fold or folding the materials after they have been creased we found the Count EZ creaser to be a great introductory machine. You can spend 15k on just a creaser and you can also spend plenty of money on the tri-creaser solution from technifold, especially if you are doing tri-folds.

We are going with an inline creaser and uv coater solution in our shop and are going to be letting our ez creaser go within your price range if that is something you would be interested in.

We are always looking for a good folder for our shop as we definitely do our fair share of creasing and folding but unfortunately we don't have the room for a large folder as well as a creaser and all the other machines we have and we realized that there is no alternative to creasing for us.

Econocrease is nearby us here in the texas area and the guy that we spoke to before from there is very knowledgeable and can work with you on finding a folder and install the econocrease unit in the folder for you.

Sad to say I threw a couple of econocrease unit away last year. And they can do a pretty good job. Keep in mind that cracking is not always a scoring issue. You can change orientation in a folder to rid of cracking as well as a slower machine speed. Now if you are wanting to get into a conversation about uncoated sheet, a wet score will beat a mechanical score hands down. The digital stuff is challenging for sure.

 

[raminmd]

Sorry to bring the old topic up but I am still in the market for a scorer/folder and I just have not found the right option within my budget. Anyway, here are the three options I have at this point

MBO t-49 with an 8 page attachment - $7,500
Baum 714 with and 8 page attachment - $4,900
Morgana Docu-fold - $6,000

I like the T-49 but it seems a bit overpriced to me. I am not sure if the Baum 714 is a good solution (it is really a tabletop). I like the docu-fold (especially the automatic set up/ease of use) but have not seen it mentioned in this thread at all. Which one would you all prefer for scoring/folding about 30,000-50,000 9 x 12 to 9 x 6. Obviously, I would like the equipment to be able to handle increases in volume as well. This machine is not intended to be a workhorse running for 8 hours a day. It probably will run for about 1-2 hours a day.

Any suggestions on where I can find used equipment/auctions for used equipment. I do have a couple of dealers I generally go to but I am sure they have a hefty mark up on all the equipment. I looked on ebay but did not find any T-49s or anything similar.

Thanks.

Thanks.

 

[Alex@Challenge]

if the MBO is in good shape ...take the deal and dont look back. It will serve you very well for many years to come.

 

[ondemandbindery]

It could be a good deal on the T-49. How close is this folder to you and have you taken the time to locate a service rep? If your rollers are in good shape then that is a pretty big hurdle. If the 8 page rollers are better than the parallel swap them out. Very easy project. Post a link or some pictures. These folders are the most reliable machines MBO made. Simple, and do not under estimate the production of it. I have made people look stupid on production because of the blazing fast makeready. I have also folded some tough roll fold work which is good considering they have the 30mm rollers. Now for the creasing, expect to pony up a few dollars. I have seen some Technifold stuff for 30mm shafts on ebay pretty cheap. Try and get the schmatics to it. If you get it, I can PDF you an owners manual. As I understand it MBO now longer does this for free but I am almost sure I still have that file.

Good luck,

 

[jzambole]

Tri - Creaser

Tri - Creaser

The Company I work for is the National Dealer of Technifold USA and I have the scoring units in stock to eliminate fiber cracking. For 1 or 2 units it is 1797.00 each , for 3 or more it is 1617.00 net each. These units install to the exit shaft of your folder.

To see them in action, please view the following link:

PRODUCT VIDEOS

Jorson and Carlson Company
1501 Pratt Boulevard
Elk Grove Village, IL 60007
800.656.7766 x 34 Fax: 847.437.0933
Email: [email protected] / Website: Welcome to Jorson and Carlson: THE SHARPER TECHNOLOGY

 

[ondemandbindery]

The Company I work for is the National Dealer of Technifold USA and I have the scoring units in stock to eliminate fiber cracking. For 1 or 2 units it is 1797.00 each , for 3 or more it is 1617.00 net each. These units install to the exit shaft of your folder.

To see them in action, please view the following link:

PRODUCT VIDEOS

Jorson and Carlson Company
1501 Pratt Boulevard
Elk Grove Village, IL 60007
800.656.7766 x 34 Fax: 847.437.0933
Email: [email protected] / Website: Welcome to Jorson and Carlson: THE SHARPER TECHNOLOGY

When I bought my Technifold scores 2 years ago I paid $1450.00 for each set. And I bought 3 at one time. Sorry to steal this thread but the price of these things are getting ridiculous. If the originator of this is reading the thread, do some research on the pricing of these things.

Good luck,

 

[Craig]

That's just another reason I got the Ultimate Scores, you can get 2 of them for the price of 1 Technifold and they worked better for me!

 

[ondemandbindery]

That's just another reason I got the Ultimate Scores, you can get 2 of them for the price of 1 Technifold and they worked better for me!

If it did the same job as a Technifold then I would certainly look at Ultimate Scores. That is just Highway robbery. A great product but somewhere you have to draw the line. A client of mine got a sample of some type of paper that was Synthetic. 12pt. stock he told me and you could crumble it up and it would not crack. Now if this is what comes next, that will change the scoring game in the bindery down the road.....