Acrobat (and PitStop) User Interface

[rich apollo]

This is kind of a continuation of another thread, but I thought it deserved it's own.

I want to first complain a bit about the UI introduced in Acrobat 8 and 9, complain a lot about the UI introduced in PitStop 7, and then open a thread to list the features that the print community would like to see in Acrobat.

First the UI in Acrobat 8 and 9. I personally don't care for it. I, and my team, preferred the UI in version 7. One thing that I really don't care for is the toolbar with each document. I prefer a single point of control, or "driver's seat". I also don't find the PreFlight interface to be all that effective. The behavior of the arrow keys and the behavior of the page up and page down keys seems kind of erratic. I wish that the zoom keys hadn't changed - it sounds silly, but I'm very used to Cmd+Spacebar rather than Spacebar+Cmd. If the Spacebar is the initial key then you run the risk of inadvertently typing spaces when trying to zoom.

PitStop 7 (sorry I haven't upgraded yet) is an atrocious UI. I don't find the icon-based approach helpful at all.

Features:
1) while the color convert tool is much improved in Acrobat 9, it's still not quite there.
2) the ability to simply embed or remove profiles and output intents without going into PitStop or PreFlight
3) ability to outline fonts
4) ability to make type edits using embedded fonts
5) the Inspector panel from PitStop should have been a native Acrobat tool
6) the ability to select and change colors of elements
7) the Global Change tool from PitStop should be a native Acrobat tool
8) ability to set or eliminate overprints
9) ability to hide, lock, or reorder elements
10) the documentation on Acrobat 9 seems incomplete. On the whole, the move to online documentation has not gone well, in my opinion.

That's just a few to get the ball rolling. We should also mention what we like.

Acrobat 9's listing of PDF/X status is a welcome change. The convert color dialogue is improved in that you can specify rendering intents, and you can specify them for different color modes. The PreFlight UI is goofy, but the capabilities are nice and the ability to create droplets is fantastic (thank you for allowing the altering of overprint status for more than just type). The output preview tool is improved in that it shows actual values of elements now.

Again that's just a few to get the ball rolling.

 

[leonardr]

I want to first complain a bit about the UI introduced in Acrobat 8 and 9, complain a lot about the UI introduced in PitStop 7, and then open a thread to list the features that the print community would like to see in Acrobat.

GREAT - looking forward to it!!! We are always open to feedback from our users...

Features:
1) while the color convert tool is much improved in Acrobat 9, it's still not quite there.
2) the ability to simply embed or remove profiles and output intents without going into PitStop or PreFlight
3) ability to outline fonts
4) ability to make type edits using embedded fonts
5) the Inspector panel from PitStop should have been a native Acrobat tool
6) the ability to select and change colors of elements
7) the Global Change tool from PitStop should be a native Acrobat tool
8) ability to set or eliminate overprints
9) ability to hide, lock, or reorder elements
10) the documentation on Acrobat 9 seems incomplete. On the whole, the move to online documentation has not gone well, in my opinion.

1 - can you please be specific about what "isn't still quite there"? What features are we still missing?
2a - Embedding/removing profiles on individual objects? That's been in Acrobat since version 7 in the Object Touchup tool.
2b - As far as the OutputIntent - the OI is only valid when used as part of PDF/X (or PDF/A or PDF/E). So why would you want to play with it when you're not working with those standards?
3 - we've already discussed this in another thread, nothing more to add.
4 - due to legal restrictions we are unable to offer this feature.
5 - What are we still missing from Acrobat 9's Object Inspector?
6 - Again, the Object Touchup tool allows this since Acrobat 7. What are we missing?
7 - Can you be more specific? What particular feature(s) of "Global Change" would you like to see?
8 - You can do this in Acrobat 9 using "overprint flattening". Is that not sufficient? Why?
9a - PDF doesn't have a concept of "hidden" or "locked" items. Are you suggesting that it should?
9b - What is reordering? Do you mean changing the drawing/rendering order (aka z-index)?
10 - no argument from me!

Leonard

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Could we go a littele slower, this is alot of good information (perhaps the stuff that could be added to the live docs, where comments can be added almost in a forum manner)
Explain how you mean we can embedd/ remove profiles with the object Touchup tool please. I'll be back but want one thing at the time.

OK found it, do you know of any good tutorials explaining how to use it? I can see that it is great that an image can be tagged, or converted. Could a device link be supported? This would be a great way to fix excess ink coverage.
– option one is to tagg with a profile to let the colour management use the output intent to take care of the colour conversion.
– optioon two would be to convert to an alternative profile with a different GCR/UCR and not embed the profile, leaving the output intents label (provided the alternative profile was made with the same measurement data as the output intent)

 

[leonardr]

OK found it, do you know of any good tutorials explaining how to use it? I can see that it is great that an image can be tagged, or converted.

I am not aware of any tutorials, though I am sure they exist.

Could a device link be supported? This would be a great way to fix excess ink coverage.

PDF does not support DeviceLink profiles (as embedded profiles) since they are clearly "device dependent" things as we've tried to stay away from such in PDF wherever possible.

Of course, now the ISO owns PDF, so whatever happens in the future is out of our control...

– option one is to tagg with a profile to let the colour management use the output intent to take care of the colour conversion.
– optioon two would be to convert to an alternative profile with a different GCR/UCR and not embed the profile, leaving the output intents label (provided the alternative profile was made with the same measurement data as the output intent)

Remember that OutputIntent is ONLY used when the file is PDF/X (or PDF/A or PDF/E) compliant.

 

[rich apollo]

Hey, Leonard. Okay, I'll hit item 1 for now.

In the Convert Colors dialogue I would like

1) The ability to specify (at the very least to see) the source profile(s). If there are no profiles present in the PDF, Acrobat assumes the relevant default color space. I'd like to be able to specify that in the same dialogue with everything else. For example, in my shop we work with pretty disparate paper types - from newsprint all the way up to grade 3 coated. Each of these requires very different setups to color manage. As it stands currently I have to go to the Preferences to change the assumed color spaces.

2) I'd really, really, really, really, like to see Device Link support in Acrobat. It'd be hard to overstate the importance of this for the print community.

3) We need to be able to protect the black channel. There are several aspects of this.
3a) Any element that comes in as a Monotone using the spot color Black needs to be recognized as grayscale. The current arrangement keeps me from being able to convert my spot colors to color managed CMYK.
3b) Currently, InDesign cannot specify anything as grayscale. So, your 50%K element comes into the PDF as 0%, 0%, 0%, 50%. For color management purposes that 50%K element gets handled as a CMYK element, not as grayscale - so it breaks to 4 colors. 3 and 4 color grays are the worst things you can throw at a printer.

4) In Acrobat 9, I'd like to add one more option to the Matching Criteria of the Convert Colors dialogue: Any Colorspace but Grayscale. I'm really glad that Any Colorspace, Any RGB, and Any CMYK are there. Beats having to select Calibrated RGB and Device RGB, et cetera.

5) You can now save a group of commands. It'd be nice to have that set available in the dialogue, rather than having to find it on the hard drive.

6) Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, for the ability to specify rendering intents!!!!

7) It just occurred to me - the Convert Commands are Preserve, Convert to Profile, and Decalibrate. Is Preserve necessary? If I didn't say to Convert elements of a particular color mode, isn't that the same as preserving?

8) If I use the Ink Manager to convert spot colors to process - is that just using the PANTONE licensed CMYK values?

 

[the_brain]

rich apollo,

FYI:

You can submit your Enfocus feature request on the Enfocus website:
Enfocus - Support - Report your feature requests

Not that I object feature discussions on any forum. I think it can only lead to better software.

Cheers,
Brain

 

[almaink]

How about being able to edit from Acrobat DeviceN objects in Photoshop? Even images produced in Photoshop can't be edited if they contain a spot color, and thats a PITA.

 

[Joe]

How about being able to edit from Acrobat DeviceN objects in Photoshop? Even images produced in Photoshop can't be edited if they contain a spot color, and thats a PITA.

Agreed. I swear when I first got Acrobat 9 I could convert NChannel to grayscale using change colors in Acrobat. It doesn't work now and I have had to revert back to Pitstop to change them before I can adjust them. It sukcs big time too as Pitstop's convert colors to gray action list is really slow at doing this.

It would be nice in InDesigns PDF export option to be able to tell it not to convert grayscale to NChannel. Or make Photoshop capable of editing them.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

reordering:
moving objects in front or behind is can be useful. If text is below transparency. (ther used to be a paste in front and paste behind as contextual menu in Acrobat 4 I think: very useful for adding a repeated background image to several pages) Locking / hiding would be a feature to be able to get to objects below without reordering like in illustrator.

 

[the_brain]

reordering:
moving objects in front or behind is can be useful. If text is below transparency. (ther used to be a paste in front and paste behind as contextual menu in Acrobat 4 I think: very useful for adding a repeated background image to several pages) Locking / hiding would be a feature to be able to get to objects below without reordering like in illustrator.

Almost all these features are available in PitStop, what's the main reason for all these requests? Speed issues?

Cheers,
Brain

 

[Purple Cat]

I want to first complain a bit about the UI introduced in Acrobat 8 and 9, complain a lot about the UI introduced in PitStop 7, and then open a thread to list the features that the print community would like to see in Acrobat.

Complain away, we're listening (well reading in this case) and we'll be happy to try and make our software better.

But lets take one step back and allow me to make one observation first of all. Designing good user interface for complex products which is efficient for all users is very, very hard. That's not an excuse, just a statement. Software vendors come up with hard to use products because they're either to much focused on the technical aspects, or because they're having trouble marrying all of the different ways the software can be used. I haven't yet met software developers who design poor software out of malice towards their users

That being said, let me ask a couple of questions:

- If you have feedback on what you would like to see changed, can you be more specific so that we can actually try to make it better?

- If you look at the PitStop Inspector in the new 08 release, do you think that is a move in the right direction or not? If not, why not?

- If you look at the user interface in Enfocus Neo, is that better / more like what you would need than what is available in PitStop Professional?

Thanks for starting this thread in any case, I think discussions on how people actually want to use the software (as opposed to how we software developers think users should be using the software) are always extremely valuable. And any and all feedback from this thread will be used when thinking about future products!

Kind regards,
David.

 

[leonardr]

In the Convert Colors dialogue I would like

1) The ability to specify (at the very least to see) the source profile(s). If there are no profiles present in the PDF, Acrobat assumes the relevant default color space. I'd like to be able to specify that in the same dialogue with everything else. For example, in my shop we work with pretty disparate paper types - from newsprint all the way up to grade 3 coated. Each of these requires very different setups to color manage. As it stands currently I have to go to the Preferences to change the assumed color spaces.

OK - for non-PDF/X documents, I can see where this would be useful.

2) I'd really, really, really, really, like to see Device Link support in Acrobat. It'd be hard to overstate the importance of this for the print community.

I completely agree about the usefulness DL profiles, however, I am not sure how it could/would be exposed. Can you explain to me how you'd like to see it? Would you want to specify specific DL profiles as output for each supplied input profile? Or just a single output, and we should match the inputs against what is in the DL?

3) We need to be able to protect the black channel.

Acrobat 9 already has controls in the Convert Colors feature to protect Black.
* Preserve Black
* Promote Gray to CMYK->Black

3a) Any element that comes in as a Monotone using the spot color Black needs to be recognized as grayscale. The current arrangement keeps me from being able to convert my spot colors to color managed CMYK.

Unfortunately, the PDF standard clearly states that a spot color named black is to be treated (when rendering to a CMYK output device) EXACTLY as if it were a CMYK color of [0 0 0 K]. Also, unless you explicitly tell Acrobat to do spot->process, we don't color convert ANY spots. (for obvious reasons).

3b) Currently, InDesign cannot specify anything as grayscale. So, your 50%K element comes into the PDF as 0%, 0%, 0%, 50%. For color management purposes that 50%K element gets handled as a CMYK element, not as grayscale - so it breaks to 4 colors. 3 and 4 color grays are the worst things you can throw at a printer.

I can't fix InDesign, but Acrobat 9's Preflight gives you the tools for converting this to Spot black or to Gray if you want.

4) In Acrobat 9, I'd like to add one more option to the Matching Criteria of the Convert Colors dialogue: Any Colorspace but Grayscale. I'm really glad that Any Colorspace, Any RGB, and Any CMYK are there. Beats having to select Calibrated RGB and Device RGB, et cetera.

That's what Preserve is for - as a way to say LEAVE THESE ALONE. So add a "Any Object, GrayScale, Preserve" to your list of commands and that's what will happen.

5) You can now save a group of commands. It'd be nice to have that set available in the dialogue, rather than having to find it on the hard drive.

We talked about that for Acrobat 9, but it didn't make the cut in time. Definitely worth considering...

7) It just occurred to me - the Convert Commands are Preserve, Convert to Profile, and Decalibrate. Is Preserve necessary? If I didn't say to Convert elements of a particular color mode, isn't that the same as preserving?

IF and ONLY IF you didn't use an "any" somewhere else. Think of it as a way to create an "all but"...

8) If I use the Ink Manager to convert spot colors to process - is that just using the PANTONE licensed CMYK values?

It uses the "alternate color" that is embedded in the PDF...

 

[leonardr]

It would be nice in InDesigns PDF export option to be able to tell it not to convert grayscale to NChannel. Or make Photoshop capable of editing them.

While I can't fix Photoshop or InDesign, we are indeed WELL AWARE of the problem...

Agreed. I swear when I first got Acrobat 9 I could convert NChannel to grayscale using change colors in Acrobat. It doesn't work now

It's working for me here - feel free to send me a sample PDF and a color conversion settings file that isn't working for you...

 

[rich apollo]

I've logged a request with the Photoshop folks on the DeviceN issue. I don't know if it will gain any traction. How mean are you, Leonard? Mosey over to that side of the campus and shake some folks up. }:-{>

Brain, you asked why I want these features in Acrobat as opposed to PitStop. You're not gonna' like my answer...I've been steamed from the very first time I to shell out for PitStop. I had to double the cost of Acrobat per seat to have any functionality. I'm not a willing adopter of PDF job submission, so I was not happy to begin with. I'm glad that Enfocus was there to fill the gaps, but having to pay extra for that functionality is kinda' like having to pay extra for the tires and steering wheel on your car. And now that Adobe and Apple are on such short development cycles, it runs up the costs of staying current and relearning.

PurpleCat, sorry haven't upgraded PitStop beyond version 7 yet, and I haven't looked into Neo. Is there a demo on Neo? I'm not sure that I could sell that price tag.

Brain, you hit on something else in your post - speed. Acrobat is pretty rough on RAM. Anything that could streamline the whole thing is good.

 

[leonardr]

Brain, you hit on something else in your post - speed. Acrobat is pretty rough on RAM. Anything that could streamline the whole thing is good.

We did a LOT of work in Acrobat 9 to improve performance AND RAM usage. I'd be curious to hear if you are finding that to be the case in your usage.

However, just remember that one way to increase performance is to use more RAM (eg. caching, preloading, etc.) so there is always a tradeoff...

 

[rich apollo]

I completely agree about the usefulness DL profiles, however, I am not sure how it could/would be exposed. Can you explain to me how you'd like to see it? Would you want to specify specific DL profiles as output for each supplied input profile? Or just a single output, and we should match the inputs against what is in the DL?

Just as a conversion option. I really hadn't thought of matching anything - I'd just like to be able to either perform a "traditional" ICC color transform or select and use a Device Link. Obviously you wouldn't embed the Device Link - you might however embed the destination profile.

Acrobat 9 already has controls in the Convert Colors feature to protect Black.
* Preserve Black
* Promote Gray to CMYK->Black

The Preserve Black refers to R=G=B, doesn't it? I don't understand the Promote Gray function. That's one that I'm trying to find documentation on. On the surface it sounds counter to what I want. I actually want the reverse - I want CMYK Black to be treated as Grayscale.

Unfortunately, the PDF standard clearly states that a spot color named black is to be treated (when rendering to a CMYK output device) EXACTLY as if it were a CMYK color of [0 0 0 K]. Also, unless you explicitly tell Acrobat to do spot->process, we don't color convert ANY spots. (for obvious reasons).

A color transform is not the same as "rendering to a CMYK output device," is it?

I can't fix InDesign, but Acrobat 9's Preflight gives you the tools for converting this to Spot black or to Gray if you want.

I know you can't. You know, it's interesting - I run into you and Dov on here. Occasionally members of the Photoshop team show up on another forum I participate in. I've never come into contact with anyone from the Illustrator or InDesign teams.

IF and ONLY IF you didn't use an "any" somewhere else. Think of it as a way to create an "all but"...

Okay. I get it.

It uses the "alternate color" that is embedded in the PDF...

Okay, thanks.

 

[rich apollo]

Item 9 on my list: The ability to Hide, Lock and reorder elements.

Leonard you asked what I meant by reordering. I mean being able to set something in front of or in back of something else. This can fix a lot of trapping/flattening issues. It's a booger-bear to select items in a PDF. A lot of times you have to dig your way down. PitStop allows you to bring something forward or backward, but only one layer at a time. It can take a loooooooooonnnnngg time to effectively reorder some elements.

Something very Illustrator-like, with the ability to paste in front or paste behind objects and the ability to select through items would be the ticket.

 

[jbbbarr]

I think what you desire is one of Neo's strong suits. I did the Webex demo, layering was as easy as it is in illy. I agree the price is the sticking point for most but it seems to be worth it if you are constantly left to edit complex pdfs at the last minute with no way to go back to native. Honestly this tool is probably much faster than native in certain cases, where the native file will never behave as desired. I could see the price justification for busy shops, that cater to the last minute, fast-food drive thru mentality, especially those with the digital presses that have a hard time dealing with transparency flattening.

 

[Joe]

While I can't fix Photoshop or InDesign, we are indeed WELL AWARE of the problem...

It's working for me here - feel free to send me a sample PDF and a color conversion settings file that isn't working for you...

I will get a file and send it to you. Like I said...I swear it used to work in Acrobat 9 but I can't get it to now. The color conversion profile I'm trying to use is Gray Gamma 1.8. It does convert everything on the page to grayscale except NChannel Spot black images that InDesign selfishly converted from grayscale.

 

[Joe]

We did a LOT of work in Acrobat 9 to improve performance AND RAM usage. I'd be curious to hear if you are finding that to be the case in your usage.

However, just remember that one way to increase performance is to use more RAM (eg. caching, preloading, etc.) so there is always a tradeoff...

RAM usage is improved in Acrobat 9.