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Apogee versus Rampage?

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  • Apogee versus Rampage?

    Does anyone have pro and cons?

  • #2
    Re: Apogee versus Rampage?

    Agfa offers a complete closed loop end to end system from prepress and design through pressroom. (google Apogee Suite)

    Aside from the above, there is the fact that Apogee was the first PDF workflow in the marketplace. Built on open architecture and virtually "future-proof" Apogee will continue to develop with the marketplace. Keep in mind that Agfa is one of Adobe's largest corporate partners. Adobe, Agfa, MAN Rolan and Heidelberg pushed for a JDF standard and therefore the creation of the CIP4 group.

    *Here are some additional points to consider between the 2 systems:*

    Built in Enfocus Pre-Flight capability

    Load Balancing / Fault Tolerance / Redundancy

    Integrated Imposition

    Use of a TRUE Adobe PDF engine - I Think Rampage is headed this way - Apogee is already there

    Intergrated imposition option

    Automation through Hot Tickets (hotfolders) and Multi-flow production plans

    Integrated InkSave option (no need for an extra box)

    Integrated Color Management and Proofing (Again, no 2nd box)

    - Rampage powerful trapping (manual)
    - Apogee powerful trapping (automatic)

    Raster preview (see actual plate-ready file on screen before proofing or plating)

    Screening - Apogee by page, Rampage by flat (may be an issue with rotated pages)

    Yes, I'm biased toward Apogee... Again, see my profile


    • #3
      Re: Apogee versus Rampage?

      Not trying to throw stones, but you failed to mention that Agfa has been for sale for the last few years due to poor sales. Rampage on the other hand has
      never lost money and always operates in the black. Rampage will be here 10 years from now, will Agfa? I'm not so sure.
      Also as a Rampage user I can say with out a doubt that Rampages trapping is automatic, if you want to over-ride a trap you can manually do it if you want.
      Rampages core rip is Harlequin which by the way beat Adobes release to market with a native PDF workflow, (LIve Transparency).
      Rampage also has a hot folder workflow if you wish to use it. Ink Drop for transforming pages or flats for ink savings. The soft proof that rampage generates is from
      the ripped data, wysiwyg all the way through production. Screening, well Rampage has multi object screening so on any page you can have a combination of am and fm screening. I'm not trying to trash Agfa, but I am trying to give an unbiased opinion. Almost all rips out in the field today will
      and can do the same things. Not necessarily the same way, but you arrive at the same point. Look at after sale support, very few people will argue with the fact that
      Rampage has by far the best tech support of any rip vendor. All for $1750 a year and it does not matter if you have one rip or 10 its the same price. What does Agfa charge for its yearly support?


      • #4
        Re: Apogee versus Rampage?

        @ MacPhenom

        How on earth would the idea that a company is 'for sale' some how have anything to do with a workflow's viability ? Xerox is NOT for sale, but you probably will not find me buying FreeFlow to drive a platesetter. Would you have suggested that Creo's prinergy was bad because they were purchased by Kodak ? Agfa is a consumables company, like Fuji, & Dupont - their decision to buy and sell business uints are based on economics related to this - and in the US, this is simply one business unit, while Apogee is managed, designed - and all code is written - in mortsel Belgium - Belgium, where Esko, Enfocus, Artworks systems and Gradual all live (now more or less under the same roof) - funny thing about the people in Belgium, they sure know how to cobble togehter a relaible rock solid workflow for Newspapers, Magazines and such...

        Rampage was started buy a guy from Scitex, (Mitch is a great guy!) using the concept of CT/LW which was invented in 1979 or so - Scitex, was purchased by Creo, Creo purchased by Kodak - does this mean anything to Scitex Brisque owners ? Hardly.

        Rampage is a great system that enables someone to take customer files and convert them to proofs, film, plates - anything that you want to print. It is a RIP. It is a technology that converts files into a stable, intermediate "CT/LW" format - one that most people do not bother to even look at, as they set it up to image. Great speed and offers some very nice tools.

        @ Ryan -- Of course, I like PDF as an intermediate format - but I like it for designers, ad agencies and other people needing to exchange a file with someone who will paginate it or impose it - why one needs an intermediate file format other than PDF is beyond me. I think you need to survey what sorts of customers you have and what sorts of files they give you - and (of course) what you need to do with that - there a million Adobe Acrobat PDF gadgets - not many CT/LW file fixer thingees anymore !

        Take a look at this list of vendors who all support PDF

        This is the players in the PDF workflow world. These vendors have grasped the idea of exchange files that meet international standards. I would pick one from this list, if I were looking at betting the farm on something.

        Hope this helps !
        Michael Jahn - Slightly used PDF Evangelist
        Simi Valley California


        • #5
          Re: Apogee versus Rampage?

          *"How on earth would the idea that a company is 'for sale' some how have anything to do with a workflow's viability ?"*

          Has nothing to do with it. What it does have an importance is in regard to
          Scitex -> Kodak. Ask the Brisque users.

          What happens if Kodak buys out Agfa?


          Edited by: Frank on Apr 4, 2008 3:17 AM


          • #6
            Re: Apogee versus Rampage?

            The biggest problem with Apogee is AGFA. I've used both, now on Rampage both sysytems have their pros and cons. I used to work for a fairly small firm even though we were on a contract we were always last for service. The engineers would come in change things, if I asked them what they were doing their stock answer was "you don't need to know this". They always seemed to be constantly on the phone asking other engineers questions and giving people support on my time. When i brought their imagesetter they forced me to have have Apogee I only wanted a Harlequin rip. They told me it can't drive their Avantra since found out it can etc etc etc. Now with Fuji/Rampage still have the odd problem sorted out pretty quick though. No sysytem is perfect, Rampage suits my set up, I like the flexibility of it. Easy to change set ups for that job that just won't RIP. Set up new plate sizes easy. Trapping is pretty good it is automatic and manual (not zone based but object). Price, everything on Apogee seemed to be an added extra. Rampage comes pretty much ready to go. I could go on.

            Try both first see how you get on.


            Edited by: andy ray on Apr 4, 2008 7:29 AM


            • #7
              Re: Apogee versus Rampage?

              Ask someone who who purchased Contex a few years back to not worry about the viability of a company before purchasing a rip platform.
              I never was questioning the viability of the Agfa workflow, go back and re-read my post. Yes, I do say that Creo's Prinergy was bad for existing
              Brisque users because they are being forced to buy into a new workflow because the software is EOL. Small printing companies that are barely surviving now
              can hardly afford to dump their existing workflows because Scitex/Creo/Kodak/ whoever is next, decides that it needs a new revenue stream to bail out
              its poor business practices and poor decision making. I will not ever approve a purchase in my company of software or hardware from any manufacturer that I feel
              could have financial issues as I don't want to be left holding the bag at the end. I work for a printer with sales of 30M a year and has deep pockets and could absorb
              a workflow change if it had to. I do care about the small companies who can't though. So I stick by my previous post that I think a manufacturers stability has a lot to do with
              my purchasing decisions.


              • #8
                Which plates are you using with Rampage, Fuji? How do you like the plates you use with Rampage compared to Agfa's violets?



                • #9
                  A vs R

                  "What does Agfa charge for its yearly support?"

                  It will make your jaw drop to see how al-a-carte agfa's support pricing is, they charge for each and every module and application; it's been a couple of years since I saw the yearly bill but I believe it came to approx 25K.

                  I would also like to point out the all rampage version upgrades are included with that $1750/year, and their tech support is top notch, agfa is not the same in my experiences.


                  • #10
                    Unfortunately our experiences here with Agfa have not been the best. We bought a scanner from them, and not even 6 months later they dropped support on it etc, cause it wasn't making them money. Management gave them another chance and were considering their Apogee rip to replace our Rampage rip, and when we had the demonstration, we had an uppity salesperson who said Rampage would be gone soon. To me that is not good business practice, even if it had been true. Just didn't care for their attitude and their support on the most of the products we did have at the time was at best very poor. The only good experience I personally had with Agfa was with our Avantra44, the tech was always informative and helpful, even though I am positive he wasn't supposed to tell me things.

                    I love my Rampage and wouldn't trade it for anything. Support is always there.

                    My 2 cents.


                    • #11
                      Rampage gone, what a crock. They are the only Rip vendor out there that is always in the black financially. Can Agfa really make that comment with a straight face considering how long they were for sale before jettisoning some of their divisions.


                      • #12
                        We were faced with the same decision. In the past we had both systems. We liked the stability of RAMpage but needed more then just a great rip, we needed a workflow. We pulled out every pies of electronics from prepress and went with the complete AGFA system. Yes, we have a few issues, but we are so much more efficient now that we have a complete workflow and not just a rip system.

                        Hope this helps


                        • #13
                          RAMPage is a workflow. I've no idea why you would say otherwise.


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