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Any Apogee users running Sublima??

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  • Any Apogee users running Sublima??

    RE: "anyone had compare sublima with screen spekta 2?
    how is it?
    which better?"

    That would be an apples to oranges comparison.

  • #2
    Any Apogee users running Sublima??

    Hi all,

    Just wondering if any Apogee users out there are using Sublima screening on their jobs?

    We recently completed our installation and have Sublima 200lpi as an option... haven't run any tests yet but wanted to gauge some impressions. We run ABS 175lpi at the moment for our CMYK work and we're looking to possibly move up if there's a nice increase in quality.

    Our AGFA rep mentioned that a some of their customers charge a premium to clients for the Sublima screening, marketing it as a premium print option, thereby making a bit back on the option cost. Once we do press tests and compare the quality if there is a noticeable quality enhancement I think we may explore some sort of option along these lines... anyone else have an opinion on that??

    Cheers, Tony

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Any Apogee users running Sublima??

      Why not just go to 200 lpi conventional? :Sublima screening is the same as Agfa AM (ABS) except for the restricted highlight dot sizes (no 1% or 2% dots with :Sublima).
      In any case - when you do your test, you should compare your 200 lpi AM to 200 lpi :Sublima rather than to 175 lpi.

      best, gordo

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      • #4
        Re: Any Apogee users running Sublima??

        Hi, we use the Sublima 240 for jobs that print on coated #1 stocks. We use 175 ls for uncoated. The only issue we have at this point is making the shadows on the epson proofs look as open and detailed as what we are getting on press.
        For us it is a marketing tool. Higher line screen more than the sublima itself.
        donna

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        • #5
          Re: Any Apogee users running Sublima??

          Hi Donna,

          Thanks for your response... Just wondering, are your customers complaining about the difference in shadow detail from proof to print? Or are they even happier with the final result?? I'm not back to my workplace until next week but I think first thing back I'll be running some tests, I'm keen to what our results turn out like! And then as you mentioned we may be able to use the higher line ruling as a marketing tool. I don't think customers are going to specifically care that its name is Sublima, just that the technology can produce a sharper print!

          Cheers, Tony

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Any Apogee users running Sublima??

            Hi Gordon,

            Thanks for your suggestion. I'm back at work next week so I'll make sure to do tests with 200lpi AM and Sublima. Best to compare apples to apples I would agree!!

            Cheers, Tony

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Any Apogee users running Sublima??

              sorry,double post

              Edited by: color_prepress on Oct 15, 2007 5:19 AM

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Any Apogee users running Sublima??

                anyone had compare sublima with screen spekta 2?
                how is it?
                which better?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Any Apogee users running Sublima??

                  We've been running Sublima for over two years. The screen rulings offered are actually 210 & 240. We're a commercial heatset web shop running 210 Sublima on about 90% of our jobs. We love the quality. Some of our covers are done at outside sheetfed shops and we have found that they are having a hard time matching our quality. Yes, Sublima uses a stocastic algorithm to drop out highlight and shadow dots, simulating smaller dot sizes such as 1, 2 & 3 percent. The start points and how it is applied can be set. The advantage is that even though you are printing 210 line you are never printing less than a 3% dot. Highlight and shadow detail is great and because Sublima runs as a conventional dot for the rest of the tone range you can still push and pull color if need be. Sublima in combination with our thermal platesetter has increased the sharpness of the plates allowing us to run more saturation while not pluging in.

                  Yes the inkjet proofs tend to have a little less detail in the three quarter tone to shadow area in dark colors but the color fidelity is still there. Once a customer sees the results they are quite happy. I don't think this is an issue with Sublima as much as an issue with inkjet printers. Generally we match the proof very closely.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Any Apogee users running Sublima??

                    I've had some very positive experience with Sublima 240. Pressman have no problem with it and customers love it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Any Apogee users running Sublima??

                      Hi Tony, Clients and sales love the way it prints. We have a few art books that we do that the shadows end up looking great on.
                      donna

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                      • #12
                        Re: Any Apogee users running Sublima??

                        We are a combination sheetfed and UV web shop and have run Sublima.
                        Using our X45 and P970 baked plates are prone to banding on printed jobs that don't show on the plates. Sublima looks good in photos and roughly simulates spot colors on flat tint areas to the naked eye. It's definitely worth trying for right CTP/press equipment.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Any Apogee users running Sublima??

                          You'll call me a liar if I tell you how long I've been dealing with Sublima.

                          It won't make a bad printer good, however, if you're a good printer it'll allow you to do better. I don't know about getting a premium for using a certain screening technology but we have managed to endear ourselves to a number of high profile customers by educating them on what Sublima can do. The higher line rulings do effectively smooth out all areas of 3-6% or higher halftone with the higher frequency. An additional benefit can be found in areas where you want to drop off to zero as the edge is randomized, more evident in flexo than offset. Like all FM/XM screens your image can look worse than AM if you have large areas of .6-3% color unless you ramp the line ruling way up. The underlying premise is that any plate type can only consistently reproduce dots of a certain minimum size. So, you spread them out to try and achieve a lower color density in a given area with a comparatively large dot. At some point the rods and cones in the eye can now isolate the dots from their neighbors and the effect is "graininess". On an edge you call it softness and we like it. My personal opinion is that it has no real value in the shadows. The dream screen would have no XM component out of the highlights. Invariably all attempts to manipulate the shadows just result in image compression. My opinion. It's not a magic bullet or appropriate for all image situations but with a little engineering you can get the right dots in the right spots. If your gear can print a 175 line screen going to 210 is superfluous. If your gear is normally limited to 120 and you can go 212, now you've got something.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Any Apogee users running Sublima??

                            It's great to read such positive results from using Sublima. (er, :Sublima).

                            I'm a bit surprised that no one bit on Gordon's comment that comparing :Sublima to Spekta
                            would be an apples to oranges comparison.

                            Gordon's right! (No, hell hasn't frozen-over.)

                            Ah, the old confusion surrounding AM, FM and
                            the implication that FM denotes random or
                            stochastic. (Sometimes FM is stochastic,
                            and with Spekta, sometimes AM is random.)

                            To clarify a comment here, the highlight and
                            shadow dot modulation is not stochastic
                            (implying randon). Rather, we control ("M"odulate)
                            the "F"requency ("FM") of the same-sized dots (in
                            sheetfed - typically 21 microns - a 2x2 pixel).

                            Those dots in the highlights and shadows are
                            not scattered (stochastic), but kept on the same screening angle/grid for that color as in the midtones which are basically ABS angles/dots. This is the XM
                            (cross modulation) genre.

                            So, :Sublima combines ABS (AM) in the mid-tones, with FM tone control in the highlights and shadows, with the remaing dots still aligned as AM placement on
                            a grid, but with an FM frequency for correct tonal value.

                            Now, with regards to Spekta (which I'm sure is
                            a fine screening choice), they tend to use a stochastic
                            (scattered) distribution of AM dots, where the dots grow for tonal rendering throughout, but like FM, the
                            scattered dot size remains fixed in the highlights and shadows.

                            Each screening controls the minimum dot in the highlights and shadows. Sublima places the dots
                            along a grid, Spekta scatters the growing dots in a random fashion. (Actually, placement is carefully calculated, but the effect is random).


                            Regards,
                            Steve Musselman, Agfa Graphics - USA,
                            Senior Corporate Account Executive

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Any Apogee users running Sublima??

                              Good point Steve. It's not random. I guess I'm saying the "intent" of the FM component is to appear random. It can't be because it's a tile based system but it tries real hard to look random, or stochastic. It's fairly obvious what's going on at the first step after the FM breakpoint because you get the grid pattern with just one or two dots missing. ;Sublima does a great job of not letting the patterns show however, just like ABS did to begin with. I've seen some screens from other vendors that appeared to truly randomize the Fm componen t and they ended up with dots that were touching dots on the edge of the grid component and made these large artifact dots.

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