Focoltone Question

gordo

Well-known member
I believe that the Focoltone system is similar to Pantone in that it is used to specify spot colors, however, the base inks to make those spots are C,M,Y,K rather than special base colors such as those used by Pantone. Is that correct?

http://www.kikuze.com/focoltone/html/products/swatchbook.jsp

Do the base CMYK inks conform to the ISO spec? Any info would be appreciated.

thx, gordo
 
Re: Focoltone Question

>Do the base CMYK inks conform to the ISO spec? Any info would be appreciated.

That information does seem lacking from their website and documentation doesn't it? It looks as if the answer to that question would be...it doesn't matter as ICCS is meant to "calibrate" the output device in question to a "generic offset CMYK standards" using a reference calibration chart and a scanner. Yikes.
 
Re: Focoltone Question

Hi Gordan
Focoltone has been around for years - it was developed in Wales - really just a set of CMYK tint charts - they then used gold or silver metalics as a base (similar to MetalFX. )

I remember about 10 years ago going to a printer in Singapour and he had bought the company ( or the rights- I think it had gone bust) - I saw him at a few exhibitions and then lost touch.

The main difference was it worked in 10 % tint steps rather than Pantone trying to match a solid colour. ( THe sell to the agencies was - All your work is printed in CMYK so why not choose it to start with. There was also talk about not needing to trap (the logo) because it was CMYK.
Love or hate Pantone - it will be a brave man to try and compete against it
Peter
 
Re: Focoltone Question

I thought that they used CMYK inks as base colors to create spot colors - not proces screen tint builds simulating spot colors. Is this not correct?

thx, gordo
 
Re: Focoltone Question

*I thought that they used CMYK inks as base colors to create spot colors - not proces screen tint builds simulating spot colors. Is this not correct?*

I am not sure I understand the question - Focoltone colours were always made up of CMYK tints
Peter
 
Re: Focoltone Question

My understanding is that Focoltone colours were not made up of CMYK tints. That their claimed advantage over the Pantone System was that their solid spot colors were made of mixes using CMYK inks and hence within CMYK gamut. So, you could have a specific Focoltone color created as a single spot ink (e.g. for one or two color jobs or as a 5th color) or have it made up as screen tint builds in 4/C process work and end up with the same hue. This is quite different from the Pantone system which does not map well to CMYK simulations.
Perhaps there is someone in the UK who could look at a Focoltone swatch book uder a loupe and can confirm?

thx, gordo
 
Re: Focoltone Question

Gordan

What u said amazed me - it was only CMYK tints when I used it . Its been off the UK scene - must be 10 years. I looked on their web site and it, as u say does mention spot colours - so who knows

P
I am getting to old to learn new things!!!!!!
 
Re: Focoltone Question

>My understanding is that Focoltone colours were not made up of CMYK tints. That their claimed advantage over the Pantone System was that their solid spot colors were made of mixes using CMYK inks and hence within CMYK gamut.

I can't verify with a swatch book, but the Focoltone library within Photoshop is defined by CMYK percentages. And to be compatable with digital printer devices, as the ICCS is geared towards, it would have to be defined by tints. Can't really conceivably mix toners after all.
 
Re: Focoltone Question

Greeting from Singapore.

It had been awhile from some of my old friends, was told of this discussion and decided to join in.

Focoltone is *Fo*ur *col*ors *tone*, originally created for combination of CMYK tints.
Unlike Pantone Matching System (PMS) which used 18 colors and transparent white, it was created as an ink mix for special colors.
PMS has a wider color gamut, and it’s impossible to simulate and match with CMYK process color printing.
Focoltone colors are CMYK combinations, thus can be printed within CMYK color gamut.
For e.g., parts per 100 gms ink mix,
........................C..........M..........Y..........K......Tran. white
FCS 1000.........0........5.26.....14.59.....5.54......74.61
FCS 1001......2.35......6.61.....19.17.......0..........71.81

X 10 = gms per Kilo or divide 6.25 = oz. per lb.

Edited by: Winson Lan on Jan 4, 2008 10:57 PM

Edited by: Winson Lan on Jan 4, 2008 11:03 PM

Edited by: Winson Lan on Jan 4, 2008 11:11 PM
 
Re: Focoltone Question

Thank you Wilson,

This appears to confirm that Focoltone colors are solid colors - not screen tint builds. The colors are made by mixing CMY and K base inks in different proportions - the same method that Pantone uses for their colors except that Pantone uses a special set of base colors. Correct?

thx gordo
 
Re: Focoltone Question

Focoltone color patches swatch book are screen % of CMYK printed on an offset press.
The color patches are in steps of 5-10% CMYK combination tints, no 11.5% or 3.5%, etc, unlike Pantone Simulator to CMYK.
For tint values e.g.,
........................C..........M.........Y.........K
FCS 1000.........15........30...…..50...…..25
FCS 1001....…..15..…..30...…..50.....….0

I've replied earlier with e.g. of ink mix formula as the question was on solid or spot color.
Four colors tone, originally created for combination of CMYK tints. As it’s within CMYK color gamut, we can have the swatch colors printed in tints and simulate with CMYK + Transparent White to mix to spot colors. It’s both usages.
 
Re: Focoltone Question

Hi Peter,

Still alive and kicking. We win some and we lost some.
The focus is in ICCS with OEM.
It had been a very expensive hobby so far with lots of FUNds.
 
Re: Focoltone Question

Hello Peter,

Are you based in the UK. Are you a designer or printer? please?

I was involved in all the early research and development of Focoltone in the UK and can probably answer all your questions.

The original system ( which had the first patents in the printing industry since 1929) was created to supply the designers with a CMYK choice of colour. A swatch book was produced that was created inside this colour space.

Subsequently the colour laboratories of Focoltone provided the ink mixes ( not dots) of the standard CMYK inks ( Briitsh European and American inks) so that any colour laboratory could produce a kilo of ink that could be printed as a solid colour and that would match the CMYK percentage tints of a four colour process piece of work.

This meant that if the designer specified a Focoltone colour for a logo , for example then on the computer screen or TV screen ( red green and blue) or on a printed piece of literature with dots, the colour would appear very similar.

If then the logo needed to be produced for say a letterhead then the colurs would match.

The Pantone original system was only solid colours and most of these lie outside the colour space of CMYK. So if a corporate identity was in Pantone then is was impossible to produce using CMYK.

Please ask me any more questions you would like and I will try to help
 
Re: Focoltone Question

Hi Ann,

I was the one who posted the original question regarding Focoltone.
Is Focoltone currently a solid spot color system that uses CMYK inks as base inks - i.e. similar to Pantone except that Pantone uses their own proprietary base inks?
Is Focoltone also a process 4/C screen tint build system where colors are specified using halftone screen tint builds?

Do the base CMYK inks conform to the ISO spec?

thx, gordo
 
Re: Focoltone Question

Hi Gordon,

Sorry about the other email. Glitches on my system!!!!

Are you in the UK please?

I shall try and explain again.

Focoltone was invented and launched in the UK in 1988. It had amongst other
things the first process colour swatch book that had ever been created.

The colours were printed using percentage tints( dots) of the four process
colours CMYK. not solid colours!!!!!!!!

It was invented out of the frustration of designers specifying a Pantone
solid colour which was outside the colour space of the CMYK inks and
therefore unmatchable.

The top advertising agencies used to spend a lot of money on colour proofing
to be able to choose a colour.

When the swatch book was launched choosing the colours became much easier.

It of course did not solve the problem that if an exact match was wanted to
a Pantone solid colour that could not be found in CMYK then an extra solid
colour needed to be printed..

Focoltone is a very sophisticated system, allowing for other things to
change the dot size when dot gain is an issue. ( sheet fed to web offset for
example)

Focoltone had its own colour laboratories and subsequently created the
specification ( how many parts) of each of the four process colours Cyan
Magenta Yellow and Black should be mixed together so that the Focoltone
colours could be mixed as a solid colour.

This came about because ink laboratories were being asked to mix Focoltone
colours as solid colours.

So a corporate identity and a process colour could be chosen from the
Focoltons swatch book and then printed as a process colour tint or as a
single ink(eg letterheading)

Focoltone worked with inks from all over the world testing them and so on.
All the colours could be mixed with any brand of process colour inks to ISO
and British Standards.

All of the research and development was done in co-operation with the
Printing Industry Research Association in the UK

Please let me know why you are asking and let me know if I have answered
your questions now.
 
Re: Focoltone Question

Hi Ann,

I'm in Canada - British Columbia actually.

You've pretty well answered my questions. The Focoltone website does not have much detail. For example it describes The Focoltone Color Swatch Book shows as showing 763 colors that you can "print either spot or process from the CMYK process colors." That's not clear at all.
I needed the info for a seminar on spot and brand color management and issues that I recently conducted for professional print buyers in the US.

best, gordo
 
Re: Focoltone Question

Does anyone have any experience with mixing process inks as a solid spot color to match a color printed with separate process inks? I'm guessing that it wouldn't be possible to use a simple formula to achieve a match. For example, the reflectance of 50C,50M,0Y,0K should be something like the sum of the following:

25% reflectance of paper
25% reflectance of solid cyan
25% reflectance of solid magenta
25% reflectance of solid magenta over solid cyan (greater ink film thickness, and dependent upon lay-down sequence)

I would guess that the reflectance of a 50/50 mix of cyan and magenta printed as a solid would be different than this, even if some amount of transparent white were added, and that the gamut of mixed solids is smaller than the gamut of process builds.
 
Re: Focoltone Question

Kyle,

You are correct to assume that a simple formula will not result in a match. I am not saying that modeling can not come close but it would be more complicated.

Some of the factors would be.

In your example, you have just one geometry of how the dots would be placed. The geometry changes as one moves from one point to another and this has an affect on the reflectance.

Also you have not accounted for mechanical dot gain. A 50% dot might have a mechanical dot size of 60%. This means that there would be less paper with no ink showing. This would reduce the paper reflectance component.

You assume that the dot has the same ink film thickness as a solid. As if the dot is a small solid. This is probably not so. Due to the ink spreading of the mechanical dot gain, the ink film probably is a bit thinner than the ink film of the solid. When you print ink at different ink films, this can change the hue of the reflected colour. Measure a solid and a screen printed with the same ink at the same SID and compare the a/b values. They will probably be different ratios. This is one reason printing the same ink on the same paper with FM and with AM results in problems in obtaining a match. The structure of the dot (ink film thickness) can have an affect on hue.

Then there is also optical dot gain which is the result of the drop in reflectance coming from the paper between the dots. The paper between the dots will not reflect the normal full amount of light that the paper would away from an ink film. This is due to the substrate being able to diffuse light internally.

In the overprinting of the dots there can be wet trap affects and also the possibility of the over print dot spreading more when printed on wet ink. I am not sure which has the bigger affect but it could be a factor.

So yes, a simple formula would not be very predictive.

The gamut question is not so clear to me. Since you are aiming at hitting a specific colour, the gamut size is not a factor. What I am guessing is that when you mix the C and M, this makes a special ink which if you want to print it lighter, then you print with a thinner ink film as opposed to the dots of C and M which you would have to reduce dot size. If you really want to make it much lighter, then you would have to add transparent white and then C and M only tint the ink.

At the extremes, where you want 100% C and 100% M from an ink mixture, I am guessing that the gamut is larger than the over printing of M on C due to the wet trapping loss of C.

Very interesting questions.

Erik
 
Re: Focoltone Question

Erik,

Thanks for the information. I hadn't considered internal light diffusion - that would probably be a significant factor. I was thinking of the process build I used as an example (50% cyan and 50% magenta) as the final result on paper (whatever tint would yield 50% coverage as read by a video dot meter) instead of the input values to a RIP or actual coverage on film or a plate. I can see how the ink inside the dot boundary would be thinner because it has spread.

The gamut issue basically relates to wether or not any process build is achievable as a solid. My assumption is that all mixable solid colors are achievable with four inks, and some process builds are not achievable as solids. I think this would apply mostly or only to colors that are generally dark with high saturation. An extreme example would be 100% of all four process colors - a color much darker than you could achieve with one ink mixed from one or more of the process colors, unless perhaps the film thickness was ridiculously high. For this example, one would probably just use a dense black. A good real-world example might be something like 100C,80M,0Y,50K - a dark blue. An ink mixed from cyan and magenta alone would not be dark enough, and adding black to the mixed ink would have a different effect than adding black in process printing: it would reduce the saturation of the color as it dillutes the other inks. Or so I'm guessing.
 

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