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  • Pantone Coated vs Uncoated Corporate style guide issue

    I have been asked by a large non-profit foundation to assist in creating a “style guide” that will reduce the significant inconsistencies they have been dealing with from print providers. The printing world is completely foreign to them and have explained the basic challenges, and limitations and causes to why their main identity color PMS 1505 could not be reproduced visually across all print production methods. After giving in to a less then desired PMS 1645C that when printed in methods other then formulated mixed ink was acceptable.

    My questions are. First- is it common when creating corporate identities to have multiple PMS colors dependent on paper coating to maintain a consistent visual match? Second- Any advice on how to relay this to both the foundation and print providers that if they want to visually match PMS 1645 on uncoated stock to use PMS 021?
    Last edited by akmaleja; 07-01-2019, 03:33 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by akmaleja View Post

    My questions are. First- is it common when creating corporate identities to have multiple PMS colors dependent on paper coating to maintain a consistent visual match?
    In my experience no. That is not done.

    Second- Any advice on how to relay this to both the foundation and print providers that if they want to visually match PMS 1645 on uncoated stock to use PMS 021?
    In my experience that is not done.

    Also, for both questions, a "visual" match is a problematic criteria. Whose color vision would be considered the technical standard? Under what lighting/environmental conditions would this person evaluate the "match"? What is their visual tolerance?

    The materials you work with have certain performance characteristics. Ask yourself/your customer what hue of matte black paint would you use to make it visually match a glossy black paint? Not going to happen.

    I think you are going down a path that will lead to frustration and problems.
    Last edited by gordo; 07-02-2019, 01:45 AM.

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    • #3
      I would put money on their inconsistencies on past jobs being the direct result of jobs that have to be digitally printed rather than litho. 1645 and 021 being impossible to get with CYMK, or even in my opinion remotely close to achieving. I've battled this many a time with clients and tweaked for hours.

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      • #4
        You'll be chasing that colour around forever and will never match it from one paper to the next. Especially true for coloured stock.
        You may stand 1/2 a chance digitally if able to lay a couple hits of white down first. Still not a thought I'd entertain. Even if the ink match was 'technically' correct, the optics of different papers/materials will fool the eyes.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by gordo View Post

          Also, for both questions, a "visual" match is a problematic criteria. Whose color vision would be considered the technical standard? Under what lighting/environmental conditions would this person evaluate the "match"? What is their visual tolerance?
          The targeted color (Orange) originated from the foundations namesake who died of brain cancer, it was his favorite . To answer above- “whose color vision” I was trusted with that responsibility and requested the help from a number of seasoned print buyers. “Under what lighting” we used D65, D50, CWF, TL84, and incandescent A, all with and without ultraviolet mixed for evaluation. “materials”- (This was a challenge due to the fact we would not be doing the print buying) My thought was to choose papers that offered both production offset and a digital version, and settle on Opus, Maccoy and Sterling.

          Where I dropped the ball on this was assuming that when printing with spot color inks the best case scenario would be to use the same selected and agreed to PMS color across all papers. We used Pantone Plus Solid Coated and Uncoated swatch book during this process. Books are 2 years old and kept closed and in drawer to extend life.

          If you (or any other readers) have the time compare Pantone 1645C to Pantone 1645U and Pantone 021U solid. If your opinion is the same as mine and agree that 021U is closer to 1645C then 1645U, I feel emotionally and professionally obligated to move forward along this path.

          Thank you for taking the time and feedback
          Last edited by akmaleja; 07-02-2019, 10:08 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by akmaleja View Post
            I have been asked by a large non-profit foundation to assist in creating a “style guide” that will reduce the significant inconsistencies they have been dealing with from print providers.
            There’s a member of this forum named SMS who was promoting an ink matching system that prioritizes consistent color across various mediums. You might want to look him up as he may be able to help you with this. Good Luck.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by pippip View Post
              I would put money on their inconsistencies on past jobs being the direct result of jobs that have to be digitally printed rather than litho. 1645 and 021 being impossible to get with CYMK, or even in my opinion remotely close to achieving. I've battled this many a time with clients and tweaked for hours.
              Absolutely correct and was even worse with previous targeted color. Our task was to find a Orange that was ok with the foundation that had a reduced gap in visual appearance when printed offset CMYK, Digital, and extended mutable ink CMYK (inkjet), compared to solid spot Pantone mixed ink.

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              • #8
                Buy a Pantone Bridge book to see how PMS colors translate into CMYK. You'll have better luck finding Bigfoot than hitting that PMS 1645C running CMYK both inks and toner.

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                • #9
                  For more fun :

                  Discussions on Ink, Substrates, and Consumables including ink chemistry, paper properties, and other raw materials used in the print production process.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Craig View Post
                    Buy a Pantone Bridge book to see how PMS colors translate into CMYK. You'll have better luck finding Bigfoot than hitting that PMS 1645C running CMYK both inks and toner.
                    That was part of the process when we created the CMYK version of art and mandated the formula for page layout apps.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by D Ink Man View Post
                      For more fun :
                      I have been following that thread thank you.

                      I do understand why the same ink looks different on coated vs uncoated. Now knowing I have a solution to give my client a better product by using 2 different PMS colors dependent on coated vs uncoated, i am more interested in how to strategically document, create logos and art versions in a manner that is clear and direct with minimum risk of misuse. Do to the personal nature of this it far exceeds “the same pms ink will look different on different substrates” approach.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by akmaleja View Post

                        I have been following that thread thank you.

                        I do understand why the same ink looks different on coated vs uncoated. Now knowing I have a solution to give my client a better product by using 2 different PMS colors dependent on coated vs uncoated, i am more interested in how to strategically document, create logos and art versions in a manner that is clear and direct with minimum risk of misuse. Do to the personal nature of this it far exceeds “the same pms ink will look different on different substrates” approach.
                        Good luck. I think that the only way to do this correctly is for the foundation to hire you as a contractor for a minimum of 10 years at a fat rate, and have you control all print work (or anything that involves these colors). Else wise you can just tell them that once you're out of the picture all bets are off in regards to competent color management.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by PricelineNegotiator View Post

                          Good luck. I think that the only way to do this correctly is for the foundation to hire you as a contractor for a minimum of 10 years at a fat rate, and have you control all print work (or anything that involves these colors). Else wise you can just tell them that once you're out of the picture all bets are off in regards to competent color management.
                          Sure as shit down the road someone will ask for a logo and they will send one for coated stock and it will get printed on uncoated. Now lets go one further, what about web safe colors and monitor displays? The Founders computer screen looks a different color than his/her phone.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by akmaleja View Post
                            My questions are. First- is it common when creating corporate identities to have multiple PMS colors dependent on paper coating to maintain a consistent visual match?
                            I have also opted once for different Pantone shades for coated and uncoated paper (example: Pantone 129 U + 130 C, which seemed closer to each other than twice 129, as a measurement of the color values ​​in Lab also confirmed, they are of course the same not yet).


                            Aside from the inevitable scenario that Craig foresees in the previous post here:

                            The hope, by using PANTONE to guarantee a Corporate Identity, desired by the customer is, unfortunately, an indelible part of one of the biggest fairy tales of the (offset) printing industry, which is repeatedly told (incompletely), even in training situations:

                            The Pantone color pattern book printed in various editions - partly under a different name - has also been produced in a different process (dry offset) as it is used in the process for which it is to serve as a reference in the graphic arts industry (wet offset), because sometimes it is simply not possible to reproduce certain color samples from it in that neccesary density in wet Offset.

                            That is not my own expirience and i Can not whitness, but my knowledge from me
                            suspicioused
                            as a well-informed source, that the printed subjects in the production by Pantone partly visually (!) adjusted for further editions. (But I like to be corrected by an "even better informed" source!)

                            When using Pantone CMS in the printing industry, you just have to realize that this tool is simply a basis for communicating about color vision aims (to define an aim and not a claim by using an example).

                            Nowhere is written or claimed that it is a 100% reliable method to get exactly the same colors in the results of different productions, especially not with different parameters such as different substrates or even printing processes. (Which, conversely, does not mean that it is impossible to achieve satisfactory results, it is just not "reliable" ...)

                            Also, I know only from others and can not testify, but after over 30 years in the industry I would not know how to do it differently:

                            A consistent color, based on differently produced printed products according to the requirements of Corporated Identity of a sophisticated and intelligent design, e.g. repeatedly found on packaging and thus to a considerable extent guarantees the recognition value of a brand, can be achieved only under the strictest agreements / stipulations on exact color values ​​in connection / dependence with the respective substrate.

                            This means, that the greater the difference in the properties of the substrates used (for example, paper white or ink acceptance behavior), the more the formulation then has to be adapted in each case.

                            By ordering one or more shades from the Pantone fan at a color supplier, a targeted Corporated Identity can only be guaranteed with foreseeable inadequacies of the most diverse dimensions.


                            Ulrich
                            Last edited by Ulrich; 07-05-2019, 05:32 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Hello Akmaleja,

                              I recommend the following:
                              -Only choose a Pantone color with the following bases- T.White, Yellow, Rubine, Pantone Pro Blue, and Neutral Black. By limiting your color search to these pigments, this will allow for differing 4 color processes to be able to match your spots within a few delta.
                              -Once the color has been chosen, Stop Referring to it as a Pantone number. The next printing by Pantone will not, barring blind luck, be a close enough visual or delta match to the color that was chosen for your brand. Measure your L.a.b. and lock this in as your standard calling it Copper Queen Orange or whatever the brand is.
                              -In your case, since both coated and uncoated stocks are used, repeat the process on uncoated.
                              -Set the tolerances for your printers, typically 2.45 CMC is a reasonable window for spots and give them the L.a.b. to hit. If it is a 4 color build open the window to 3.5 or so. (Of note, on my end of things 2.45 CMC is too large of a window. I set up our tolerances to rifle shots. This allows more room for my customers' inherent noise).

                              Good Luck and Best Regards,
                              Cold

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