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8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

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  • 8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

    Does anyone use them?

    Bill Atkinson is always using 16-bit values for his profiles and he always use UV-Cut data (UV light excluded). Some others build their own charts also. Anyone can comment on pros and cons of 8/16 bit versus "regular" value charts?

  • #2
    Re: 8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

    Why does he use UV filtration when no specification or standard does? What are the benefits vs. not using UV filtration?

    I ask because I have a proofing rip (DuPont CromaPro XP) that requires UV filtration, so my spectro has it, but I've been thinking of getting a non-UV proofing rip and spectro combo that is able to acheive in-tolerance proofs to GRACoL2006_Coated1v2 and ISOuncoated. I'm close now, but the grays (the most important measurement according to G7) is out-of-tolerance (need Delta E ab of less than or equal to 1.5, but I have 2.4).

    Don

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    • #3
      Re: 8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

      I am going to quote what Andrew Rodney wrote:

      QUOTE: "To get back OT I do love my new iSis! The consistency between measurements
      is a lot more repeatable than the i0. It is slower. Its nosier. But it
      doesn't touch the print surface, something the i0 can and often does do. I
      feel I'm getting better quality profiles, plus, I have to say, I was on the
      fence about UV until talking with Bill Atkinson who's targets I'm using. He
      said "use UV" and he's about the last guy I'd argue with when it comes to
      color management (Bruce Fraser being another).

      Bill said in no uncertain terms (and he was referring to the iSis) USE UV
      cut, you'll get better gray balance. I just finished building a lot of
      profiles for the new Epson Exhibition Fiber paper for a lot of printers and
      the results are fantastic!

      Andrew Rodney
      Author "Color Management for Photographers"
      http://www.digitaldog.net/ "
      END QUOTE

      Bill Atkinson is in the class of his own (http://www.billatkinson.com) and I would not argue with him either. I am always using UV-cut filters even if I try to match something like Gracol. The only questions I have if someone has seen advantage of using 8-bit or 16-bit values.

      Ryan

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: 8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

        Ryan,

        Thanks for replying. I don't know what to say. One person says use UV, another says don't. No specification or standard for printing uses it. Youv'e just quoted Andrew Rodney who said that Bill Atkinson said to use it and you'll get better gray balance. I use it on my DuPont CromaPro XP/Epson7600 proofing because it's required, and about the only thing out-of-tolerance is my gray balance (casting yellow).

        Confused as usual. (And I wonder why I can't make a friggin' decision on what to do).

        Don

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        • #5
          Re: 8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

          I always use it even if the paper has minimum OB, even for newsprint proofing end-rolls that for sure don't have any OB. Yellow cast would be indication that your paper has lots of OB and you are NOT filtering UV. What instrument do you use? If I don't exclude UV I always get yellowish tint in the background on my gmg proofs.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: 8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

            My spectro is a DTP41BUV. The thing I can't understand (and those at IPA can't understand) is that my paper (according to the IPA Proofing RoundUp) has Delta L* of 0.41, Delta a* of 0.26, and Delta b* of 0.74, yet my Delta E or 50/40/40 Neutral Gray was Delta E ab 2.40 (needed to be less than or equal to 1.5). Doesn't make sense to me, but I'm wanting to know if I can get away with maybe getting new paper, or do I need a whole new proofing solution. Can't get an answer from anybody, so I keep trucking on with what i've got.

            Don

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            • #7
              Re: 8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

              I also submitted my proofing system to IPA. My results from IPA for paper was L 0.23, a 0.25 and b 0.04. I used gmg rip, gmg paper and dtp-70 with no UV filter. My neutral grey was 1.23.

              Normally I use Isis and UV filter but I knew that they are going to use dtp-70 to measure and I did some tests before between Isis and dtp-70 and I did not get good match between them. Different technologies, different companies etc. I am sure if I would measure and supply my system with Isis in UV mode I would fail. If you are using dtp-41 you should not expect to pass. If your paper is fine the problem is dtp-41.

              Ryan

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: 8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

                >The only questions I have if someone has seen advantage of using 8-bit or 16-bit values.

                This is akin to the 8-bit to 16-bit image editing argument. Technically speaking, 16-bit should be superiorand allow for smoother gradients/less banding, but this might be limited to certain images/instances and the benefits overall could be minimal or invisible to most. Moreover, some rips might not be compatable with 16-bit images yet, GMG being one of them...or does the most recent version support 16-bit? We haven't updated in a while.

                As far as UV goes, I have no reason to doubt anyones claims and all I can say that if I match Gracol data using UV filtration on my proofer, the low delta E values are a bit optimistic compared to the same target measured without uv filtration.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: 8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

                  Bottom line it looks like is to not use UV filtration (since I'm trying to match GRACoL2006_Coated1 spec/ISO12647-2 standard that don't use it in their readings). Thank you both Ryan and Michael.

                  Don

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: 8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

                    Don,

                    You can get some used dtp-70 for half the money of the new Queen of Measurements Isis as I am sure you know that dtp-41 doesn't support switchable UV filtering. If I were you I would buy Isis as this is IT spectro today.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: 8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

                      Ryan,

                      I got a quote from Pitman on a new XRT EYE-ONE iO Scanning Table, IDEAlink Curve, and XRT EYE-ONE DESIGN. I'm not sure if I want to go with Eye-One Design or more than that. I want to have a package I can profile scanners (like one I buy from Walmart), so we don't have to buy an expensive scanner again that costs so much to maintenance, and I can just get another scanner if need be and profile it to get accurate color. I'd also like to calibrate and profile RGB and CMYK (CMYKcmk too) printers/proofers. Although I'd like to use official profiles (such as GRACoL2006_Coated1v2 and ISOuncoated), I think I'll need to make my own profiles (much as I detest having to learn how to best map out-of-gamut colors and finding optimal GCR settings,etc.), and ProfileMaker by GTMB has about the best profiles I've seen. Don't know what I'm gonna do yet. It takes me forever to make a decision.

                      Don

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: 8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

                        I have Isis (love it) and both Monaco Profiler and Gretag ProfileMaker Pro and I believe (I am not alone) that Profiler makes better quality profiles. But I prefer ProfileMaker Pro for the interface and the "other" tools.

                        Why don't you start a tread - which profile maker software makes better ICC profiles? It would be interested to see what others think.

                        with iO table you have to make a decision to get UV or not UV-cut eye One Pro. Why do you want iO? If you want to make CMYK profiles you should get PROOF bundle instead of DESIGN. Design doesn't support CMYK profiles.

                        Also, ProfileMaker Pro doesn't come with Proof or Design. You will get iMatch software unless you want ProfileMaker bundle.

                        Ryan

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: 8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

                          Because like most of the time, I got a quote for stuff, and if this was my boss, they would have signed off on it and got it. But as you said, it doesn't look like what I want, so I'm trying to decide the "package" I want. This is more than likely going to have to last me some years, so I want to make the best decision I can. I'm going to most likely have to get a new proofer (my impo proofer has lived much longer than anyone expected, and my contract proofer is an Epson 7600, which is not certified in any way for GRACoL2006_Coated1v2 or uncoated G7 as far as i know, and I'd like to actually just start making one set of proofs that can be folded but are quality if it's possible), a new profile-making program, a new proofing rip (that dosn't require UV), a new production rip (thinking about Prinergy Connect which Pitman gave me a brochure for, or upgrading to Neo/TotalRip from Nexus, so that I can work with the PDF/X-4 live transparencies, blend modes, and edit type using PDF's embedded fonts, but I still want my proof and plates made from the same final file, which requires a ROOM workflow and don't know if any Adobe PDF Print Engine rips are ROOM).

                          As you can see, I'm looking to replace about everything except the platesetter. Since I'm doing well (close to GRACoL2006_Coated1v2, but grays out-of-tolerance even using official profile, a little less yellow overall if using my custom old profile but still pretty close), then I can afford to take my time and actually get we what I need for the foreseeable future. Gotta make sure it all works together too.

                          Don

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: 8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

                            >my contract proofer is an Epson 7600, which is not certified in any way for GRACoL2006_Coated1v2 or uncoated G7 as far as i know

                            An Epson 7600 can certainly make a proof conforming to Gracol2006_Coated1v2 data. We do it here all the time. Its not listed as a Gracol/SWOP certified proofing system only because Epson no longer makes them and the venders tend to use the latest devices when getting certified, but the gamut is capable to emulating Gracol, depending on the paper you use.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: 8-bit or 16-bit profiling charts

                              If you are looking for a new proofing rip, no matter what ANYONE says I believe gmg is the best of the best. I have not seen anything better. But you should take your time and do the proper research. I would not count on Pitman much. You should get some other options from Pitman competitors so you can save some money and get Isis instead of iO.

                              Comment

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