Sword Excel Plate has lines in non-image area that print....

[jlind]

I hear that this happens occasionally when the developer needs replenished. However, this time, it happened after 400 plates instead of 800 plates.
It was a flier that has a lot of white space. When you looked with a loupe, there they were, like a line of 10 micron stochastic dots. Seems like it was just the cyan plate. If it was more than one color, man, that was good register.
Has anyone dealt with this before?
Prepress realized there were dozens of plates already imaged. These had to be run through the processor again, with the gum from the processed plates contaminating the chemistry, so it had to be dumped.
Any ideas how to head this off at the pass?
John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718

 

[seejay]

Re: Sword Excel Plate has lines in non-image area that print....

john,

what device are you using to image the plates?

I have experienced something very similar before with kodak plates - in our case, the imagesetter was marginally out of tolerance and wasn't exposing the background away. The lines weren't visible using a normal loupe and only showed on press due to .... perfect register of all 4 colours. Our initial take was similar - only in the cyan, but when view with a 20x magnifier they were evident on all 4 plates.

Reprocessing the plates was not an option in our case, as this ended up overdeveloping the plates causing colour issues on press. We ended up bumping up the laser power to fix the issue. An remaking lots!! of plates.

Edited by: seejay on Feb 28, 2008 9:10 PM

 

[Point918]

Re: Sword Excel Plate has lines in non-image area that print....

John;

I'll second seejay's response.
Our Trendsetter's laser was slightly out of alignment when relatively new and our Sword plates showed lines like the one's you describe. Field Service Tech made some adjustments and the problem has not resurfaced in nearly a year.
On another note I was NOT aware that gummed plates run back through the processor had any affect on the developer chemistry or the could overdevelop a thermal plate. I'll have to bounce that off our Kodak Plate tech.

Don Evans

 

[jlind]

Re: Sword Excel Plate has lines in non-image area that print....

It's a Lotem 400V, last adjusted on Feb 7, 2008.
How long should a laser such as this stay "tuned"?
What makes a laser change in power and focus? Age? Something used up? Loss of atoms?
Can you see this stuff easier with a plate control target? It seems to be in some areas of the plate more than others.
That was good feed back, I know someone who really appreciates it.
John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718

 

[Paultheprinter]

Re: Sword Excel Plate has lines in non-image area that print....

Hello,

cant add much except we had this issue with kodak plates when our CTP unit was installed. Im sure they called them REL lines. Same fix remake plates.

Paul

 

[PeterA]

Re: Sword Excel Plate has lines in non-image area that print....

John
As Kodak if its the temp around the laser head
Peter

 

[heatset]

Re: Sword Excel Plate has lines in non-image area that print....

The symptoms you are describing indicate a lack of energy being transferred to the plate by the laser. We found that running a power sweep on the platesetter every month and adjusting as necessary totally eliminated this problem. This is in a higher volume shop running 8000 - 10000 plates a month.

 

[paulrfrancis]

Reading between the lines

Reading between the lines

We're running a Lotem 800 with an IGP Thermaline 120 processor and we had lines that appeared on all 3 of our webs at the same time. We dropped the dev and noticed that a guide roller gear, that sits in the dev, was broken, so roller wasn't spinning, so we placed one on order and changed the dev. The lines went, but we were only getting half of the dev life. We got Kodak in, they changed laser settings, got new batches of plates, cleaned processor, but nothing really conclusive. Then we got our new roller which was put in at the same time as all this was going on, and, bingo, the lines went and we haven't seen them since. People said it was coincidence, but I don't know.
We saw near exact lines again once and it turned out to be the paper, which the printer got rid of by turning the reel over.

 

[Joe]

We just went through this. You will get these lines in 2 different circumstances. The first is if you are not getting the proper circulation in your processor due to a dirty filter. The second is if the scrub rollers need replaced. If you can send the plates back through the processor to get rid of the lines it is not the CTP imaging unit. It is a processor problem. Or so the tech tells me and proved to me.

The tech also told me that Sword plates are a very dirty plate and cause more plate dust than most other plates and turning up the laser power makes it even worse. I can vouch for the plate dust. We just had to do a complete cleanup in our plate room and what a mess it was.

 

[rakam]

prepress

prepress

Just ran into what may be a similar problem...had 2 boxes of plates that had an upcurl real bad. After finishing the first box, we set it aside and got into one of the 8 other boxes that had a different lot number. Right away we could tell the plates were not curled, that was good. As soon as the first plate was done imaging and shot out, I saw all this "dust" on the plate. It also was like in bands or stripes about 2" wide. These are 60" plates and the bands went clear across the plate, the bands went in the direction around the drum, not the 60" way. Called our Kodak tech people and he and a field engineer came out. Said there is a problem with the ablation and that we will need to change chemistry more often. Since chemistry was at cycle end, we changed it. Output a plate, same pattern after ejecting from platesetter, and SAME PROBLEM after being processed. The dots do not appear to be affected. It is EXTRA image. As one post mentioned, it looks like a stochatic type pattern. We print packaging, run around the clock 7 days a week...so far, we haven't had any real critical color jobs that it would be noticed on, but in the non image area it is very noticeable.

So, Kodak's reply is need to change chemistry more often. However, fresh chemistry did not fix the problem. NOW WHAT??? Tech coming in tomorrow, Monday, to see if lessening exposure will help...have my doubts. They also say they have no plates to replace these and thus cannot recall them. That seems pretty odd.

My understanding is these plates are being manufactured in Georgia now. A

Anybody else seeing this problem of late....

Rick

 

[rakam]

prepress

prepress

Oh, I should mention, these plates were the P45.

 

[PACH]

It's a Lotem 400V, last adjusted on Feb 7, 2008.
How long should a laser such as this stay "tuned"?
What makes a laser change in power and focus? Age? Something used up? Loss of atoms?
Can you see this stuff easier with a plate control target? It seems to be in some areas of the plate more than others.
That was good feed back, I know someone who really appreciates it.
John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718

Hi Jlind,
When was it the last time you had a PM done on your Lotem400? Have you got a DRU connected to your platesetter? As mentioned before this plate is very ablative so the final lens on your dynamic optics could be very dirty causing you problems. At what Intensity and Drum speed you are running? Maybe the intensity and drum speed need to be recalibrated for the Lotem.

 

[MarkBlanchard]

Same

Same

Having the same problem for months. Had Kodak reps in several times, still having problems!
The last time they turned the rotation down to 140 RPM...Screen (PR8800) recommends that you not turn it below 180 or you will run into inconsistent color issues. I'm trying to talk them into switching to Fuji.

 

[PACH]

Having the same problem for months. Had Kodak reps in several times, still having problems!
The last time they turned the rotation down to 140 RPM...Screen (PR8800) recommends that you not turn it below 180 or you will run into inconsistent color issues. I'm trying to talk them into switching to Fuji.

Mark,
Here the plate is used on a Lote400 ( I am not sure if it is a fiber head or Quantum) so your figures are different on a Screen platesetter.

 

[Ong@Kodak]

Sword Excel Plate - lines

Sword Excel Plate - lines

Hi all,

Some comments on this thread:

It's a Lotem 400V, last adjusted on Feb 7, 2008.
How long should a laser such as this stay "tuned"?
What makes a laser change in power and focus? Age? Something used up? Loss of atoms?
Can you see this stuff easier with a plate control target? It seems to be in some areas of the plate more than others.
That was good feed back, I know someone who really appreciates it.
John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718

John, can you advise what is the latest status? Were you able to get the Lotem exposure checked?

We just went through this. You will get these lines in 2 different circumstances. The first is if you are not getting the proper circulation in your processor due to a dirty filter. The second is if the scrub rollers need replaced. If you can send the plates back through the processor to get rid of the lines it is not the CTP imaging unit. It is a processor problem. Or so the tech tells me and proved to me.

The tech also told me that Sword plates are a very dirty plate and cause more plate dust than most other plates and turning up the laser power makes it even worse. I can vouch for the plate dust. We just had to do a complete cleanup in our plate room and what a mess it was.

I would like to echo Joe's comment about ensuring that the processor is checked. Things like dirty or clogged filters, scrub covers that may need replacement, roller pressures, and general maintenance would have an effect on processing performance. If you have any questions about the processor, please feel free to give our customer service group a call.

Just ran into what may be a similar problem...had 2 boxes of plates that had an upcurl real bad. After finishing the first box, we set it aside and got into one of the 8 other boxes that had a different lot number. Right away we could tell the plates were not curled, that was good. As soon as the first plate was done imaging and shot out, I saw all this "dust" on the plate. It also was like in bands or stripes about 2" wide. These are 60" plates and the bands went clear across the plate, the bands went in the direction around the drum, not the 60" way. Called our Kodak tech people and he and a field engineer came out. Said there is a problem with the ablation and that we will need to change chemistry more often. Since chemistry was at cycle end, we changed it. Output a plate, same pattern after ejecting from platesetter, and SAME PROBLEM after being processed. The dots do not appear to be affected. It is EXTRA image. As one post mentioned, it looks like a stochatic type pattern. We print packaging, run around the clock 7 days a week...so far, we haven't had any real critical color jobs that it would be noticed on, but in the non image area it is very noticeable.

So, Kodak's reply is need to change chemistry more often. However, fresh chemistry did not fix the problem. NOW WHAT??? Tech coming in tomorrow, Monday, to see if lessening exposure will help...have my doubts. They also say they have no plates to replace these and thus cannot recall them. That seems pretty odd.

My understanding is these plates are being manufactured in Georgia now. A

Anybody else seeing this problem of late....

Rick

Rick, what CTP are you using? We definitely recommend a debris removal system for the Sword Excel plate to manage the plate ablation.

Having the same problem for months. Had Kodak reps in several times, still having problems!
The last time they turned the rotation down to 140 RPM...Screen (PR8800) recommends that you not turn it below 180 or you will run into inconsistent color issues. I'm trying to talk them into switching to Fuji.

Mark, do you have a debris removal system on your Screen CTP? This will help with ablation generated during imaging.

Thanks, Frank

 

[rakam]

Hi all,



Rick, what CTP are you using? We definitely recommend a debris removal system for the Sword Excel plate to manage the plate ablation.

Frank,
Yes there is a debris removal system...mind you we have been using ctp (vlf trendsetter) since 11/06. We are not newbies. Tech person came in and by adjusting exposures was able to MINIMIZE, note, not eliminate the ablation dust, however, that also grew our dots, and basically throws our curves to the wind!
Unacceptable solution...so they decided the plates needed removed and replaced. They were going to send in some plates with a "T" in the lot number, but when they arrived (2-12-10) they had the same lot number as the problem plates...all 8 boxes. Kodak just pulled from stock. On 2-17-10 we received 8 boxes that Kodak says they manufactured over the previous weekend. They has the "T" in them and they appear to be printing just fine.
I am told that Kodak has seen this problem, but maybe not on 8 or 12 guage metal...we use 15. Or that not all units and heads have the problem with the same plates...too many variables for me to get my head around...but appears the problem is resolved with these new plates.
Will be nervous though every time a new batch come in wondering if these should be at somewhere else where they have a different unit, different head, no curves to worry about, etc.

Rick

 

[Ong@Kodak]

Frank,
Yes there is a debris removal system...mind you we have been using ctp (vlf trendsetter) since 11/06. We are not newbies. Tech person came in and by adjusting exposures was able to MINIMIZE, note, not eliminate the ablation dust, however, that also grew our dots, and basically throws our curves to the wind!
Unacceptable solution...so they decided the plates needed removed and replaced. They were going to send in some plates with a "T" in the lot number, but when they arrived (2-12-10) they had the same lot number as the problem plates...all 8 boxes. Kodak just pulled from stock. On 2-17-10 we received 8 boxes that Kodak says they manufactured over the previous weekend. They has the "T" in them and they appear to be printing just fine.
I am told that Kodak has seen this problem, but maybe not on 8 or 12 guage metal...we use 15. Or that not all units and heads have the problem with the same plates...too many variables for me to get my head around...but appears the problem is resolved with these new plates.
Will be nervous though every time a new batch come in wondering if these should be at somewhere else where they have a different unit, different head, no curves to worry about, etc.

Rick

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the reply. As you said, there are many variables with optimizing the plate performance, with exposure, plates, processing conditions, curves, etc...!

High quality printing is not easy

Glad to hear that the latest batch of plates you receive are working well. If you do run into any more issues with the plates, please call the Kodak technical support line at 1-888-996-5877.

Thanks, Frank

 

[Borut]

Hello

The problems with lines is the problem with wrong adjustment - laser power, fokus, zoom if the problem is still the some after changing chemistry.

Regards

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

We had this very same problem with Kodak plates and our Heidelberg Supasetter. Turned out the laser needed adjustment, we were just on the edge of good/bad and when they sent in some different plates for us it put us over the edge. Heidelberg came and corrected the issue and all is right with the world again.

 

[PlumBob]

Am I the only one having excessive ablation issues with the "T" Kodak plates?