Standard Finishing
4Over

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

2-sided proofing

Collapse
Canon
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 2-sided proofing

    We are now embarrassed by the proofs being output by our Spinjet/HP1050 proofing system and would like to know of your thoughts on any of the competing devices on the market. One option that sparks our interest is the Kodak Media Guide that can be retrofitted to our underutilized Epson 10600.

  • #2
    Re: 2-sided proofing

    I am using Spinjet with Hp 5500 and I love it. Speed is great and quality is good. I don't what is that you don't like it about yours? As you mention double-sided proofing is for imposition and content proofing, not for color evaluations as you cannot pump lots of ink on the page.

    If you still want to take a look at other systems:

    Canon ImpoProof - the best, the fastest, the most expensive
    Versojet - great product sold in Europe
    Spinjet - great software, durable design
    DoubleProof - EOL product, flimsy and not sold anymore

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: 2-sided proofing

      we also use the spinjet, and i will say that it is a workhorse. we pound a lot of proofs through it, and it just keeps going. we use it strictly for content, we have the color dialed back. as far as the backup, i have never been a fan of the spinjet or the doubleproof when it comes to proofing one side and flipping it and proofing the other side. it does a fine job on smaller 1-up peices, but on the larger impositions we proof, it tends to skew quite a bit, and it is hard for us to keep the square. even at worst, the backup is off maybe .0625" at one end. for our use, the large imposed proofs ar emore for content, and arent relied upon much for backup issues.

      the canon impoproof, and this is only my opinion, is a bit of an enigma. it is two hp plotters welded together, back to back. it has a large upside, becasue the sheet does not require bing flipped, it goes through as one stream...one plotter does the upper, and then feeds immediately into the other plotter which prints the lower. the sheer speed is very nice. it worked great for us when we had a large volume of imposed proofs that needed to be done all at once, one right after the other without any hesitation. where we ran into trouble was if your work is stop and start, it seemed to us like it took a proof or 2 for the optics to dial in before the backup was usably close, so i turned into a bit of a material hog. but once it dialed in, it was lights out, fast and accurate. we rarely had so much work that we could keep it fed enough to keep it dialed in, so we ended up using the doubleproof more often.

      for as many of these proofs as we make, it seems like someone could really make a fortune if a double-sided proofer could be pefected. they all seem to have limitations.

      all in all, the spinjet has gotten the job done for us, it is solid.

      cr

      Edited by: chris_r on Sep 17, 2007 8:43 AM

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: 2-sided proofing

        Dont forget the spinjet 4000, Very fast machine www.techsage.dk

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: 2-sided proofing

          We have a 4000 and it is the fastset content proofer I've ever seen. We're running HP bond paper in it too so the cost is rediculously low to operate. Like any other double proofer, it will jam. Some of the old timers had to be dragged screaming to it but after a while they learned to get long with it. You'd think the flip arm on the spinjet would have made it a lesser diety to the proof team but as is human nature, they found a way to complain and resist the new equipment. Before the spinjet, they had used an old Iris and flipped paper manually. Why they didn't want to let the machine do the work is totally beyond me. Point being, if I had the budget today, I would put in a second one today.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: 2-sided proofing

            What embarasses you about your current impo proofs? What method are you using to control registration?

            The Kodak Media Guide is simply a way to line up the media and has small indentations to "hold" the media in place and assure it's square. I'm not sure how well this has been accepted and I'm not sure of the cost. However, most of the times I've seen this installed the users are less than thrilled because they view it as something not needed to perform this task. With this hardware, paper is still manually loaded and manually flipped.

            Regarding SpinJet, I have been under the impression that the 4000 model leaves a lot to be desired when compared to the 5000 model. Paper walking and increased jamming are two complaints that seem to always come up. All that said, I also know that many times machine failure is operator error or improper maintenance. Not having ever used one of these myself, I obviously have no hands on opinion of its suitability, only anecdotal info from users.
            Bob Hill
            Mid-States Graphics

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: 2-sided proofing

              Hi HighTech Monkeyboy,

              Would you mind PM me your e-mail or phone number, i would like to talk to you about your 4000. Thanks much.

              Mark Tonkovich
              Heidelberg USA
              Product Manager, CtP & Proofing
              Mark.tonkovich@heidelberg.com
              Mark Tonkovich
              Heidelberg USA

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: 2-sided proofing

                In continuance of this older post at: http://www.prepressforums.com/forum/...0-printer.html

                We are getting A "Spinjet Error 07" on the HP 5500 screen readout and the job sits in the flipper. It won't flip the sheet to re-feed so it can print the other side. Right now, we reset the spinjet flipper, the sheet drops out, we reload the sheet as "sheet" (not roll), then it print the other side.

                We then have to reload (roll setting) for the next job.

                Anyone know what "Spinjet Error 07" is?

                Why would it not continue? Should something be adjusted. We don't see any loose parts, belts, etc.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: 2-sided proofing

                  Sorry. I'm not familiar with that error. Have you called Techsage? Even if they charge you for support, you'll probably save money on labor in the long term, once it's running unattended again.

                  We upgraded from a Spinjet 1050 to a Spinjet 5500 last year and the difference is staggering! The 1050 required almost continual attention and refeeding. The 5500 works as it should 95% of the time. Occasionally, after completing a double-sided proof, it requires a reload of the roll. More often than not, it just hums along, running dozens of proofs in succession, something our 1050 would never do.

                  On the downside, the backup on it is usually .031" to .062" off, sometimes as much as .093", so we do have to reproof some signatures with critical crossovers. But it beats running film, stripping film and exposing film for double-sided bluelines. Anybody want to revisit THOSE days?! Not me, thanks.

                  The stock you run on Spinjets is critical, the thinner the better (but not TOO thin). We have two good suppliers of a 24lb double-sided matte sheet that works well. We reduce the ink on all double-sided proofs so that they look like complete CRAP. We do this for three reasons: 1) to eliminate paper curl for reliable refeeding, 2) so that customers cannot proof them for content, and 3) so that the proofs run at the highest speed. I don't want a print buyer to say, "I like the color on THIS proof! You know, because it looks like it's been through a chemical bleaching process. Can you match it?" "Why, yes, we can match this. If I replace the fountain solution with Woolite, and get the lady who cuts the checks to run your job, we can match this exactly!!" is my reply. "How about a press check at 8:00a.m.?"

                  We like our Spinjet 5500.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: 2-sided proofing

                    I recently took deliver of the Kodak Matchprint Inkjet proofing system (PrinergyEVO driving it, bundle sale at a hell of a deal), and am happy w/ the proofing quality thus far. It allegedly can backup 2-sided proofs (uncoated, sheet), however due to some complications w/ the install, we haven't had that quite tweaked to perfection yet. However I've been assured (and assisted) by one of the developers involved in the product (that I knew from a past life), that once the tech gets back from Maine, we'll have it right as rain. They've told me where all the buttons are I need to fiddle w/ the backup settings, just haven't had the time yet (and it looks like everything is there...).
                    FWIW, the Matchprint system we have is based on the Epson 9880 print engine.

                    - Mac

                    Edited by: Mac on Apr 8, 2008 6:13 PM

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: 2-sided proofing

                      We just purchased 2 of the Epson 9880's to use with our Prinergy system. Can someone give us some tips on improving backed up proofs. The process of feeding an aligning the paper is a little clunky compared to our old Iris 43 Wides plus we seem to be getting a lot of stretch with the paper (3 corners will align fine but the fourth is off by as much as an 1/8").

                      Thanks,

                      Bill

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: 2-sided proofing

                        We have a 9800 with the Kodak Media Guide. It started out producing fairly accurate 2 sided proofs, but has started to stray, giving us proofs with crops off as far as .5".

                        A few things we've noticed: the paper size marked on the box of paper does not reflect the actual paper size. If the paper is 1/16" shorter than the Prinergy media setting, then a sheetwise form will be off by 1/8" when the paper is filpped. Either adjust the media setting or cut the paper square.

                        Also, paper curl seems to be real issue for us. Store your cut paper flat, not on end, so that it won't develop a nasty curl that affects how the rollers pull the paper through the 9800.

                        We tried pre-punching our paper on our plate punch and aligning the sheets with punches taped to the Media Guide, but with no success.

                        Let me know if you have any better luck.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Has anyone contacted support lately for the Spinjet? Their on-site price has gone up dramatically.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LoweringTheBar View Post
                            We have a 9800 with the Kodak Media Guide. It started out producing fairly accurate 2 sided proofs, but has started to stray, giving us proofs with crops off as far as .5".

                            A few things we've noticed: the paper size marked on the box of paper does not reflect the actual paper size. If the paper is 1/16" shorter than the Prinergy media setting, then a sheetwise form will be off by 1/8" when the paper is filpped. Either adjust the media setting or cut the paper square.

                            Also, paper curl seems to be real issue for us. Store your cut paper flat, not on end, so that it won't develop a nasty curl that affects how the rollers pull the paper through the 9800.

                            We tried pre-punching our paper on our plate punch and aligning the sheets with punches taped to the Media Guide, but with no success.

                            Let me know if you have any better luck.
                            I installed quite a few versoproofs on older Epsons (this was a software toold, which would take Epson language files, or tiff and modify them better for backup use wth calibration routines and support for perfector jobs) anyway I always found the Epsons a bit hit and miss,some would backup fine everytime and some where a right dog out the box. One tip I do have is if the jobs start to stray, check in the paper path for paper fibre build up around the rollers. If you clean these up, it can help

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Stick to the Spinjets, i would say they are the best solution for DS proofing, Does anyone have any problems with there Spinjets at the moment

                              Comment

                              4OverStandard FinishingDuploSmartsoft (Presswise)AleyantCanonKBA
                              4OverStandard FinishingDuploAleyantCanonGraph Expo4 PeesLabelexpoKBAKBA

                              What's Going On

                              Collapse

                              There are currently 5142 users online. 82 members and 5060 guests.

                              Most users ever online was 6,597 at 10:25 AM on 04-20-2018.

                              Working...
                              X