Staccato Screening

HW

Member
Hi All


We currently print all work 'Kodak' staccato screening.

20 Micron - Coated
25 Micron - Uncoated

We have good process control in all areas, We currenty print to ISO Spec and we use image control to keep to these standards. We proof to fogra standards, so we should be able to acheive a Commercially acceptable, Proof to print match on coated boards (uncoated is another problem to discuss).

We sometimes struggle to match tints ie, Light blues, bascially light colours. Im sure this is staccato screening which his causing this problem, change to AM and you get the match you require.


What do you think.
 
Re: Staccato Screening

Dan
I should keep printing conventional - clients wont know the difference

Peter
 
Re: Staccato Screening

Noticing the same thing with lighter colors/pastels and Stacatto screening (actually HDS, but virtually same thing). The interior gamut is slightly different which could account for this. If you have the capability, a device-link workflow could clear this up.
 
Re: Staccato Screening

RE: Michael Eddington wrote: "Stacatto screening (actually HDS, but virtually same thing)"

Actually Staccato is not HDS.

And

"Noticing the same thing with lighter colors/pastels and Stacatto screening (actually HDS, but virtually same thing). The interior gamut is slightly different which could account for this. If you have the capability, a device-link workflow could clear this up."

In fact 20 micron Staccato has a larger gamut than an AM screen up to about 350 lpi (at which point the gamuts are about the same) The gamut difference shows up at the perimeter of the gamut - not internally. This is because Staccato's distribution and size of dots allows more light to be filtered by the ink. Also, AM screens lose some of their possible gamut because of the non-homogenous film of ink on each dot. The gamut difference shows up from the 3/4 tones up into the 1/4 tones (pastels) in one and two color screen tint builds. Also contributing to the difference is the relative coverage of ink in the 1/4 tones. Ink filters light - including UV (i.e. optical brightners) the greater number of small dots in pastels may be cutting a bit more of the brightners than the AM screen.

Here is an animated gif that compares 175 lpi to 20 micron Staccato so that you can see where the added gamut lies. The dot gains of the presswork were normalized so that they matched tonally. Solid densities and traps are also the same. You may have to wait a moment for the graphic to load and animate.

!http://www.bytephoto.com/photopost/data/500/10692Gamut.gif!

best, gordo
 
Re: Staccato Screening

Thanks Guys

Gordon - If we are proofing to Fogra 39, surely dont we have to print AM to get a constant match. If we want to print staccato, then would we have to create a internal proof profile for our own inhouse standard.

We print lots of greeting cards, so the pastels are quite common, Im really thinking of moving back to AM.
 
Re: Staccato Screening

Really they wont know the difference ?

I have customers that will see the difference from 20 to 25 micron stacatto, granted its not a huge
difference but you CAN see it.And it WILL get rejected.

Its pretty typical to see the light tints print sharper, unless like mike mentioned are using a DVLP.

John
 
Re: Staccato Screening

Dan
I print about 60 - 80 sets of Stacatto a day - I spoke to my press room manager today (and printers on shift) It would appear that we have problems with both AM and Staccato down the bottem end tints - we get amuch better match when we are running 200# linear plates. However we are matching the images very well and are loathed to bump the dot up in the qtr and mid tones


All our proofs go through the Matchprintrip and are individually certified to Fogra39.

The real problems we have is matching the intensity of the colour between 50 - 100 . We seem to print much more detail - which is great but client complain they can see mud on the tyres instead of black blobs.
And also sometimes loosing the magenta dot on a Cyan solid - the dot just seems to be overwhelmed.

You are running CMY sequence.???

BTW I couldt see you name on the list on BPIF members ??

Peter
 
Re: Staccato Screening

Yep, this is a known "issue". There are workarounds. For instance, Rampage can create FM and AM items on the same flat.
If this isn't possible within your workflow, I would run AM OR FM depending on the job itself....

MDK
 
Re: Staccato Screening

Thanks for nice the clarification Gordo!

>Actually Staccato is not HDS.

Ok, perhaps not virtually, but I've seen it referenced that stacatto was based on Global Graphics HDS, or is this incorrect?
 
Re: Staccato Screening

> {quote:title=meddington wrote:}{quote}
>
> Ok, perhaps not virtually, but I've seen it referenced that stacatto was based on Global Graphics HDS, or is this incorrect?

Kodak re-engineered the Staccato screen sets about a year and a half ago so, yes, it is no longer true.

best gordo
 
Re: Staccato Screening

> {quote:title=HW wrote:}{quote}
>
> Gordon - If we are proofing to Fogra 39, surely dont we have to print AM to get a constant match. If we want to print staccato, then would we have to create a internal proof profile for our own inhouse standard.
>
> We print lots of greeting cards, so the pastels are quite common, Im really thinking of moving back to AM.

It is not a question of AM/FM or XM. It is most likely, in your case, a question of dot sizes. As soon as one deviates from the conditions that go into a specification (as represented by your proof) then you are no longer "in spec" and as a result, you may (or may not) encounter color issues. E.g. if you go from 175 lpi (which I believe is Fogra) and instead use 200 or 240 lpi (AM or XM) because the dots are smaller, your color will be different. Also, if you're not printing on the same subsrate you will be out of spec and the color may be different. Whether the difference is acceptable or not is up to you and your customers.
If the color disconnect in pastels is related to the gamut difference that I suggested - keeping in mind that there may be other issues in your shop regarding proofing and press - then I think you have several choices.
1) Change your screening to the Fogra spec (175 lpi?)
2) Stay with Staccato and use a device link profile to contaminate single and two color screen tint builds in order to simulate the Fogra condition
3) Leverage the extra gamut and detail of Staccato by characterizing the Staccato gamut and creating proofs that reflect the actual presswork you will achieve.

IMHO option #3 is what I would do. Specifications like Fogra/GRACoL7/SWOP etc. are great when you need to have blind interchange of files, for example, for advertising submission to publications. However industry specs do not reflect the performance and extra value that you can deliver for specific customers - like greeting cards. BTW the two largest greeting card publishers in the US have been printing exclusively with Staccato for the past 6 or so years. Contact me off-forum and I can send you samples if you like.
As a printer, given the flexibility of today's digital workflows, there is no reason why you cannot have more than one target print condition (reflected in the proof) in your shop. Use Fogra when and if it's appropriate. Use your own target when it is appropriate. I don't see the business value in further commoditizing your presswork by printing like everyone else if you don't have to.

best, gordo
 
Re: Staccato Screening

Kodak re-engineered the Staccato screen sets about a year and a half ago so, yes, it is no longer true.

Gordon

have we had that upgrade ?

Peter
 
Re: Staccato Screening

i have no real answers for you on this but i have had a bit of experience printing staccato on a silicone release paper with texitran inks which had no slovent in them, we would proof the job and the customers would ammend untill happy, and when we got to press the pastels would be all over the place,the cusomers were very fussy and in the end we just got to weight on most jobs and then guessed the correct change in dot, after six months we were quite good at it , but there was that much return on the job it was't a major issue. i put it down to proofer unable to consistantly simulate trapping at low dot sizes but Gordo has sunk my battle ship on that one with the extended gamut.
 
Re: Staccato Screening

OK........what about this one...................we use image control to maintain standards on press. In my opinion FM screens sharpen up alot more across the run, compared to AM screen ( i will prove this in the next couple of weeks). This can be a problem we customers are approving 'OK' sheets on image control.

Any thoughts Guys


Thanks all for your replies on the other points...........Gordon, i would be interested in seeing some samples..ill contact you.
 
Re: Staccato Screening

Peter

We run ISO Sequence KCMY for all jobs

Ill double check the Membership issue


Dan
 
Re: Staccato Screening

To Dan - if you let me know the tints and the length of run I will see if I have space to put then on one of our jobs. It doesnt matter where we start - we can see where we end.
Peter

To Gordo are u American
 
Re: Staccato Screening

Good
I hope you are members - it would be good if we could get your input or even be on the committee

peter
 
Re: Staccato Screening

> {quote:title=PeterA wrote:}{quote}
> To Gordo are u American

I'm a Canadian (you can see my spotlight somewhere on this forum). I try to use "N.A." spelling if that's what caught me out.

best gordo
 
Re: Staccato Screening

> {quote:title=HW wrote:}{quote}
> In my opinion FM screens sharpen up alot more across the run, compared to AM screen ( i will prove this in the next couple of weeks). This can be a problem we customers are approving 'OK' sheets on image control.

Again, in this context, the press doesn't know anything about AM of FM screens.
Small dots are simply more sensitive to wear, edge erosion, blinding, and/or chemical attack. If conditions are questionable on press (and even in prepress) the small highlight dots of an AM screen will likely be affected and show the problem first. Same thing would happen with a very fine AM screen since all the dots are small. Because FM screens use a lot of small dots through the tone scale - they may share the same issues which can show itself as "sharpening."
For press and prepress halftone related issues, it is always best to look first at the size of the dots, rather than how they are organized, when trying to diagnose what problems you are actually having. What shape the dots have and how they are organized would be the second and third areas to investigate if the size of the dots is not found to be the issue. A good example of this approach would be looking at how screened areas printed with metallic inks perform at different screen frequencies. As you go to finer screens (smaller dots), metallic ink performance diminishes and at a certain point fails completely.

best, gordo
 
Re: Staccato Screening

"Gordo" may have given you away :)
In the very early 90's i was one of the early Postscript Scitex users (I remember spending about $700,000 on Kit.) I got very cross with all the pretenders who knocked them - I rememeber coming over to Seybold in Boston and SF, I sold my business in 1998 and bought another in 2000 - bought Heidelberg Prinergy and then moved to Creo/Kodak Prinergy 3 years ago.

Its the people that make the difference. Thats why I spoke about John Braken who is now in Vancouver , Dave Winfield (has moved back to the states - Isreal is still involved in Europe - and yesterday I met the sales guy that sold me all the Scitex kit - Peter Banks - a welshman like me - if yoiu go to Drupa and see him just say hello - He is a salesman - technically not very good - but he has technical support for that - but when the S**** hit fan he was always there.

Peter
 

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