PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

PeteS

New member
Hi all:

I would like to put a question out for all to comment on. I am wondering what the current thinking is on PDF creation from Native applications like Indesign CS3. What is the best way to make PDF's?

1) Export from Indesign using a variation of the built in PDF/X-1a preset, Flattening transparancy (avoiding postscript altogether)
2) Create postscript (Flattening transparency) from a queue program or by printing to disk and then using Distiller
3) Using a workflow solution such as Xinet Full Press, or other to create a PDF.

Anyway I would like to here everyone's ideas on this.

Thanks,
Pete
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

>Exporting a PDF file directly from InDesign only seems to work for four color process jobs. It creates a composite file that turns anything with a spot color (like a duotone) back to CMYK.

Not correct. In the export dialog, select the Advanced tab/section and in the color area use the Color pup up to select Leave Unchanged. This produces a composite CMYK + Spot Colors pdf. Confirm the result by viewing in Acrobat Professional using Separations Preview.

Al
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

There is no need to choose "Leave Color Unchanged"
Convert to Destination - (some CMYK profile)
will preserve spot colors.
If your spots are going to CMYK - you probably have another problem you are not taking care of up front.
We would need to see some files, links and presets to be sure.

MSD
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

Point well taken. I was trying to prevent all conversions, which as you point out can better be done by converting to the same document color profile, and no conversion takes place (assuming no RGB colors in the file).

Al
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

I'd agree with Al and MSD.
Getting back to Pete's question, I'd say the best option is to Export form INDD as PDF v1.4 or greater, if your RIP can support it (live transparency, no flattening)
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

Al,

I am looking in my advanced tab section of InDesign when exporting a PDF file (see attached screen shot) and I do not see the Leave Color Unchanged pop-up menu. Are you sure you are not referring to the Output Tab to select Leave Color Unchanged or are you using a different version of InDesign besides CS3?

Edited by: harry featherstone on Apr 12, 2008 1:45 PM
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

harry,

That's right. It is not in the same place in all versions of ID. I based my post on IDCS, which is what I have at hand on this mac. Your Output tab screenshot shows it correctly in that version of ID. It's the same pup up.

Al
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

What you described will ONLY happen if you happen to have the Color
management/conversion options enabled in the Export dialog. You can have
the same result happen with Distiller if you use the equivalent choices
there.

Don't blame the process....Check your settings!

And Adobe HIGHLY recommends the use of Direct Export of PDF. It will ALWAYS
produces the highest fidelity PDF from the original content. Any
production of PDF via Distiller is a LOSSY operation.

Leonard Rosenthol
Adobe Systems
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

Hi Leonard,
Most of your posts recommend generating press-ready PDF within CS3 applications and against using Distiller. So here's a few questions that I have been pondering...

1) Has Adobe been untruthful regarding the use of Distiller in the past or has there been changes behind the scene that the public isn't inform about?

2) Distiller has been use for how many years now and proven to work? It is still included with the suite... what's the purpose of including a the Distiller as standalone app and not just make it a plug-in and hide it behind the scene? So now PDF via Distiller is LOSSY? Where's the official word on this?

We are operating in a world where if things work then it's correct. Regardless methods, if I'm to start enforcing PDF through Export function within CS3 apps, we like to have official documents to back this up.


Thanks.
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

Those are good questions. Leonard will, no doubt, give you a more complete response, but I think it will include a clarification that the lossy part is the postscript step rather than the distillation process. I also look forward to his response.

PDF is much more capable today than when Distiller was first unveiled, and it can contain more information than is possible in postscript. That's the key. In the mean time here are some links to official information on the subject:

http://www.adobe.com/designcenter/acrobat/articles/acr7ip_prntwrkflw/acr7ip_prntwrkflw053107.pdf

http://www.adobe.com/designcenter/creativesuite/articles/cs3ip_transguide.pdf

And here is a link to an official presentation on the subject:

http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?13@@.3bbabb8a

Al
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

So, If I could, may I expound on this question a bit?
If I am setting up a customer to send me hi-res PDFs out of CS3 (INDD) should I have them as PDF 1.4 (flattened) or PDF 1.7 (not flattened)?
To be honest, I have used Export as a 1.4 for the past 3 years. Only had 5 pdfs that I had to go back into and flatten differently.
However, those 5 have been in the past 2 months - INTERNAL department - don't it figure!
Also, part of my hesitation is that my customers (sending the pdf) are not as savy as the prepress room is.
Does 1.7 cover my butt more than 1.4??
Thanks
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

If I am setting up a customer to send me hi-res PDFs out of CS3 (INDD) should I have them as PDF 1.4 (flattened) or PDF 1.7 (not flattened)?
------
I was under the impression Acrobat 5 did retain transparency
and on would need to go down to
PDF 1.3 to flatten a file.

MSD
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

I wanted to summarize where we are in this discussion.

1) We all agree that it is best practice to use the export function vs any other method to make a pdf from Indesign

2) It seems a little unclear on best practice to move away from PDF/X-1a (PDF 1.3 with flattened Transparency) or not?
Most print houses and publications still request PDF/X1-a.

3) PDF 1.3 flattens Transparency, anything higher leaves the Transparency live, which is ok for most new rips but might cause problems for older ones.

Comments????
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

@kaiserwilhelm,

To my way of thinking, how much you need to cover your butt depends primarily on what rip capability you have available. The less capable the rip, the more you need a lower pdf version/standard in order to lessen your exposure to problems. On one hand, asking customers for a higher pdf version exposes your butt if you lack the rip capability to handle it. On the other hand, depending on the content of native files involved, a lower pdf could be a less faithful one.

So if you have the resources, upgrade to the most modern rip and encourage customers to use the highest level pdf standard available.

http://indesignsecrets.com/pdf-print-engine-throw-us-your-transparency-effects.php

@MSD,

That's correct. Pdf 1.4, Acrobat 5 and later do support live transparency. "Transparency is flattened on exporting to a format that doesn’t support live transparency (such as PDF 1.3, PostScript, and EPS) and on printing files." This from: (http://www.adobe.com/designcenter/creativesuite/articles/cs3ip_transguide.pdf, page 3)

Al

Edited by: Al Ferrari on Apr 14, 2008 10:01 PM
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

Just a quick addendum . . .
One of the "switches" that cause 4/C PDF's to be made from PMS pieces is the "simulate overprint" checkbox.
A client will appreciate the "look" in a proof, because it will help show the wonderful design elements doing there thing, but the capability of the color engine(?) to know the interactions of all PMS colors is limted. So, all colors are converted on the efly to 4/C . . .
Uncheck the "simulate overprint" preference when creating the PDF being sent to the RIP (which will separate/trap the colors based onits own magic formula) . . .
Keep up the good work!
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

And don't forget to re-read your typing, even if it is 6AM in Florida!
Yikes!

Just a quick addendum . . .
One of the "switches" that cause 4/C PDF's to be made from PMS pieces is the "simulate overprint" checkbox.
A client will appreciate the "look" in a proof, because it will help show the wonderful design elements doing their thing, but the capability of the color engine(?) to know the interactions of all PMS colors is limited. So, all colors are converted on the fly to 4/C . . .
Uncheck the "simulate overprint" preference when creating the PDF being sent to the RIP (which will separate/trap the colors based on its own magic formula) . . .
Keep up the good work!
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller


HappyFriday,

Exactly how do you figure that Adobe has been in any way +untruthful+ about use of Distiller in the past?

Distiller was and is a component of Acrobat dating all the way back to the first Acrobat releases. It name, +Distiller,+ comes from the fact that it +distills+ the graphic essence of a PostScript file into a deterministic, final form representation of the graphical content originally to be represented by that PostScript file. Since virtually all application programs on standard operating system platforms since the late 1980s has been capable of producing PostScript output, by definition, with the addition of Distiller, the same programs were then able to produce PDF corresponding to that PostScript output. Thus, creating PDF was +easy+ and PDF files became ubiquitous.

However, over time, the imaging model used both by Adobe applications (such as Illustrator, InDesign, and Photoshop) as well as the PDF format itself (as supported by Adobe Acrobat) surpassed the imaging model of PostScript language level 3 by including support for ICC color management, non-opaque objects (i.e., transparency), layers, JPEG 2000 image compression, etc. There are no plans whatsoever to augment PostScript to match that more advanced imaging model -- i.e., no PostScript language level 4.

Thus, if you have content (such as an InDesign document) that actually utilizes non-opaque objects and/or full ICC color managment (with individual objects tagged with their original color spaces), any PDF creation from same via distillation of PostScript will in fact be +lossy+ since that +live transparency+ and +color management+ is lost in the creation of PostScript for the distillation process (via flattening and color conversion). Furthermore, you cannot propagate any JPEG 2000 image compression or layer information into the resultant PDF file via PostScript.

For reliable PDF print publishing workflows, you need to maintain content at the highest level of abstraction all the way through the workflow up to the point where the final form file format data (in this case PDF) is rendered/RIPed. By definition, for content that has live transparency and full ICC color management, PDF/X-1a does +not+ qualify as a reliable PDF print publishing workflow since transparency flattening and color conversions require that you know the target device resolution and color space for transparency flattening. PDF/X-1a files are device dependent! That is where PDF/X-4, developed by an ISO committee representing software, hardware, and print industry representatives and recently (March 1, 2008) published by ISO. PDF/X-4 supports live transparency, full ICC color management, JPEG 2000 image compression, and layers (for editioning) with PDF 1.6. (NOTE that the final PDF/X-4 specification does differ a bit from the +draft+ PDF/X-4 support provided by InDesign 5.x. You can expect final PDF/X-4 support in the next major releases of Adobe Acrobat and CS applications.)

You comment that +Distiller is a standalone app+. This isn't really true. It is a component of Adobe Acrobat and Adobe Acrobat Pro is bundled with the Creative Suite. Although Distiller is not necessary to create PDF from InDesign, Illustrator, or Photoshop, we did not think it was prudent to provide a "stripped" version of Acrobat (i.e., sans Distiller) in the Creative Suite!!! Users would scream about being cheated by not getting the full Acrobat Pro package. We will not make Distiller a plug-in hidden behind the scene because there remain many applications, especially non-Adobe applications (such as QuarkXPress) that do not have any native PDF export capability (QuarkXPress "exports" PDF by creating PostScript and converting same to PDF), that rely on the ongoing functionality and interfaces of Distiller to maintain their ability to create PDF.

I don't know what you mean by wanting +official word+ and +official documents+ to back this up. But since I am an +official Adobe spokesperson,+ assume that you just got your +official word+!

- Dov
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

Thanks for the explanation Dov. The bottom line is, IMO, that every process is limited by the weakest link in it's chain, in this case the rip. That is why PDFX1a is still widely accepted as being the standard for graphic arts PDF exchange mostly because old rips are still around.
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

I certainly buy the +weakest link+ issue, but "old RIPs" is a crutch excuse. And PDF/X-1a for content originally with live transparency and color managed color is a means of shifting blame (to the content creators) as opposed to fully satisfying the customers' needs

The fact is that you don't need a thoroughly modern RIP to properly render PDF/X-4 files. As long as you have a PostScript languagel level 2 or 3 RIP conforming to the PostScript specification, you can always print these file with color managment and live transparency directly from Acrobat 8 Pro if you don't have the latest, greatest PDF RIP. (For example, I can easily print separations from PDF/X-4 or equivalent files to my old circa 1995 LaserJet 5M via Acrobat 8 Pro!)

The biggest problem is +fear+ and +lack of education+. Printers who act like Luddites are destined to fullfil the "print are dead" prophecies of industry pundits.

- Dov
 
Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

Well said. This thread could not have come around at a better time.
In the process of setting up our client I discovered that they are Printing out of CS2 ID because they do not want to tell their customers to turn on OverPrint Preview.
I discovered (correct me if I am wrong) that if they make a 1.7 PDF that it shows well to their customers AND I get to take that PDF and rip it in my TrueFlow and flatten during the RIP.
Thanks for all of the input to everybody.
 

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