PC VS Mac Platforms

Re: PC VS Mac Platforms

> {quote:title=Dov Isaacs wrote:}{quote}
> Yes, this was true for older versions of Adobe applications, although InDesign was fully consistent in terms of character set (it uses Unicode) from release 1!

But doesn't that require a Unicode compliant font?
 
Re: PC VS Mac Platforms

No, it doesn't require a Unicode-compliant font. What it +does require+ is that you use the same font from system to system and cross-platform. By +same+ I mean either an OpenType font, a Windows TrueType font, or a Windows Type 1 font. You may otherwise use platform-specific Type 1 fonts or TrueType fonts +if you have a guarantee that the versions across platforms are the same+. In the case of the old Adobe Type 1 fonts (we no longer actively license those fonts), the Type 1 font was exactly the same between Windows and Macintosh although packaged in a different file format. As a counter example, the Apple TrueType Helvetica fonts are not the same as the Adobe Type 1 Helvetica font - similar, but definitely not the same. If you try to mix-and-match fonts with the same name, but with different mappings, glyph complements, and metrics, that's when all hell breaks loose!

When the fonts are indeed the same per above, Adobe applications use their own mapping into the fonts as opposed to the old Windows mapping versus Macintosh mapping which in fact was the source of most cross-platform character mess-up problems.

- Dov
 
Re: PC VS Mac Platforms

When it comes to fonts is there still a problem with the file naming conventions in the typographic industry: where the font file information can point to the wrong font file on another platform or different computer? I read this once, but I believe the paper said that the font file name could be the same for two different font files or even font versions. And due to this confusion a font substitution could occur and no warning is given in Adobe Suite? Could this also explain some examples of font issues you described?
 
Re: PC VS Mac Platforms

> {quote:title=John W wrote:}{quote}
> File originates in Europe. PDF is sent to us in NA. We are asked to modify the file to suit NA pharmaceutical regulations . . .

Whoa. That isn't prepress work, that is a complete redesign. Someone didn't do their job upstream.
That is like bringing a European car to the NA market, and asking the people on the manufacturing floor to make the required changes instead of going back to the engineers.

Any smooth, trouble-free production process involving many people and many machines can get hosed by one idiot.

> There is a huge difference between rebuilding the file competely and just fixing a small part of the pdf. You and I know this instinctively but smart ass print buyers have zero clue and believe the pdf fix is simple; indeed, they believe the pdf is the native file!

That is an educational moment then.

Chasd.
 
Re: PC VS Mac Platforms

Russell,

Those of us (including Dinos such as I) in prepress that work natively know full well that when revisiting an older job, we must constrain to use the same level of all items in that job, I said all items (read fonts too). Even an old Rip and old workflow arguably should be kept active and run parallel to a new Rip/workflow.
My peers often have multiple workflows in their shop; Postscript, Creo, Agfa, Esko, Fuji, Screen, Indigo direct, iGen, etc. The key being that each system has its quirks and methods some direct to pdf, some through invisible ps, some proprietary. Some systems now have four or more routes within themselves.

Rant:

I am aware that pdfs that were supposedly properly made, even compliant will produce different results through different routes within one system and certainly different results through altering systems; I note, some of the time. Mostly it is transparency that causes changes in result (eg: drop shadows) but it can be screwball spot color use, the incorrect use of white with overprint or some other silly error that just cannot be seen until after the job is processed. Tiny gaps, uneven tinting, blends that are interpreted and the list goes on and on. I have seen files saved without preserve spot colors when possible unchecked and the jon ruined by a non-job item in a scrub area. You just never know. And we teach that operators they should bang into these things during off hours whenever possible but often an op will spend eight hours on the clock trying to solve a strange issue while the op on the next shift spent those hours weeks or even months before and has a two minute fix.

Prepress seems to have morphed into Hell sometimes.

John W
 
Re: PC VS Mac Platforms

So these alternative work flows that you use, do they depend on the file type and version you are pending to your RIP(s)?

Also, Is there a separate concern for the font names as I have described-despite the need for parallel work flows? I am just wondering if this is an issue too, among may for sure.
 
Re: PC VS Mac Platforms

I listed the flows in no particular order but other than the rudimentary postscript workflow I mentioned, all the others can accept pdf and some can accept either ps in raw or some refined form or pdf.
The point of having multiple workfows may be dedicated output engines that follow the Rips; an example I can give would be an HqRip internal to an HP Indigo or the same job run via Creo to the Indigo. One job may run perfectly direct to the Indigo and screw up going via Creo. That's not the point. The point is to guarantee success, you may/will need to have various routes by which to process whatever set ups you use and whatever files you are provided. And yes, versioning is/can be a big buggaboo. So can font coding and auto substitution, all/any of the issues that crop up de temps en temps, etc.

Keep in mind, that simple jobs usually run flawlessly. My jobs are almost never simple because I'm in folding carton and most creators have zero knowledge and are totally unwilling to learn the technology let alone the actual issues. Hey, keeps us prepress guys in a job and all we need to get is the boss to pay us the wage we're really worth, eh?

John
 
Re: PC VS Mac Platforms

Yes, unfortunately this problem still exists.

When Adobe migrated to OpenType fonts, we decided to uniquely name our fonts. All the Adobe versions of OpenType fonts are labeled as either +name Std+ or +name Pro+ to differentiate these fonts from the older Type 1 fonts.

In terms of what Adobe applications can do about fonts with the same name that aren't the same ...

I believe that the CS3 applications do warn if let's say you composed with a Type 1 Helvetica and you are now attempting to edit with a TrueType Helvetica (or vice versa). That helps a bit, but not really enough. We have been toying with the idea of extracting the font's internal version number and creating a hash code for the font and putting both into our documents such that if there was any version difference or font file difference, we could warn about it. No imminent solution, but stay tuned.

- Dov

PS: Remember that "font" is a four letter word beginning with "F" - :)
 
I also live in prepress hell: we receive Graphic Designer's Corel Draw document; we send PDF to client and are told the characters have changed. Yes all of this was done on the PC without any macs being involved (it would appear that there are two fonts with the same name, but different character mapping).

We recieve "Graphic Designer's" PowerPoint presentation and are asked to add bleed as she is too busy; we send PDF to client and are told we have spelled a name wrong.

We try to proof these CMYK PDF files and discover that the Corel Draw file has a graphic which contains a spot colour called: transparent white; no problem print all plates as CMYK from within Acrobat... EFI rip falls over and says: You cannot be serious man! Meanwhile PowerPoint red is looking decidely orange.

Just one Adobe thing: AdobeCSx on macintosh can use ColorSync, but it is not on PC AdobeCSx. It does not come out right - strange but, converting PC Adobe CSx whatever into Macintosh AdobeCSx ColorSync works - what am I doing wrong (I work at three different employers).

Oh! Look! An Aldus PageMaker version 3 document has just arrived.
Ho Hum... just another day in prepress hell.
 
Pc vs mac

Pc vs mac

There are only three governing technologies and the level that the applications comply with these technolgies and the users ability to understand these technologies are the limitations. Compliance with the GDI, Postscript and ICC Color management. Any other considerations are useless PERIOD!

With that said almost all designers and many pre-press technicians are useless.
 
With that said almost all designers and many pre-press technicians are useless.

AMEN!- I recently passed as job on our heatset press with an art director in tow, their masthead printed Orange when a Red was expected, ofcourse the press/printer got the blame, when i pulled a check copy and explained the gracol bar and the meaning of the colour swatches after measurements were taken to confirm the press was within tollereance i was dumbfounded to be told by the design guru that as the gracol bar was trimmed off the sheet its meaning and weight to my rationale ( i.e. the file was supplied incorectly) was null and void!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Naturally the files were late and no proofs were suppled.

Upshot; press was pulled up, PDF was adjusted, new plates made and client left happy with the result and convinced as printers we are clueless as her 1 year design diploma certificate beats my 26 years expereirence and tradecertification handsdown.

regards
Maas
 
MAC vs PC

MAC vs PC

AMEN!- I recently passed as job on our heatset press with an art director in tow, their masthead printed Orange when a Red was expected, ofcourse the press/printer got the blame, when i pulled a check copy and explained the gracol bar and the meaning of the colour swatches after measurements were taken to confirm the press was within tollereance i was dumbfounded to be told by the design guru that as the gracol bar was trimmed off the sheet its meaning and weight to my rationale ( i.e. the file was supplied incorectly) was null and void!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Naturally the files were late and no proofs were suppled.

Upshot; press was pulled up, PDF was adjusted, new plates made and client left happy with the result and convinced as printers we are clueless as her 1 year design diploma certificate beats my 26 years expereirence and tradecertification handsdown.

regards
Maas

Of course your 26 years experience meant nothing. Education is about feeling good about being incompetant and experience is for the uneducated.
 

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