Legal issues with designer's files

Re: Legal issues with designer's files

We use Prinergy EVO and usually drop our PDFs onto workflows but we also have a printer set-up that we can print problematic files to and then it automatically process the files into the Job Data volume. Don't know if you have something similar set up but but it is worth doing.

Designers can sure be a pain! ;- )
 
Re: Legal issues with designer's files

The solution is very simple.

Use a PDF driver to print such a document to another PDF. All security is then not applicable to the new PDF. If you do not have a PDF driver, print to file as a Posrscript file and use Adobe's Distiller to recreate the PDF.

Or imploment a good Web-to-Print solution that automatically provides un-locked high quality print ready PDF's.
 
Re: Legal issues with designer's files

As the file allows opening and printing, just open and print file to .prn or .ps using file print option of your CtP/CtF then try to rip it.
Otherwise print the file using Adobe Acrobat PDF Printer (with settings as same as source) and try that file to RIP.
 
Re: Legal issues with designer's files

I've dealt with this before. Some designers are real jerks and not to bright. I dealt with a designer like this before a few years ago. The customer was a valued customer, so we recreated the piece and tweaked the designs slighty, so the designer couldn't say we ripped off his design. The customer ended up liking better and had us send the jerk designer a secured PDF that he could only view with a nice email letting him know that they didn't even use his design. It was nice to see the designer go out of business a year later. Just goes to show you don't mess with your customers, some have alot of pull in the area they may be in and can make you sorry. I have to say it was enjoyable to see happen, it could have happened to a bigger jerk.
 
Re: Legal issues with designer's files

I have removed passwords from designers pdf's on a few occasions under direction from my boss. The usual scenario; designer sends in pdf files over email and job is printed. A few months later the customer rings me up asking for 16 new business cards using the original pdf just changing the details. I say files may be passworded and you may have to go back to the designer for amended files. Customer flips and threatens to go elsewhere because of the fortune they got charged for the project in the first place. What am I meant to do? I do what the boss says and move on. Next job please. It's not as if they have designed a life saving drug or heart valve is it? That is why a designer will charge what they do.

(Gahh, cheap £4 keyboard, the keys are too spaced out)

Where do we stand legally? I manage the prepress department so am I liable?
 
Re: Legal issues with designer's files

The suggestion to put the locked file into indesign will not work. Adobe creative suite enforces restrictions on PDF files. I have run into this problem before, it is really painful. If you are allowed to print Hi-resolution and the PDF is PDFx1a or better then it should be possible to print to a file and redistill.
 
Re: Legal issues with designer's files

Wow. Kenny Coffman appears to have a lot of hostility towards designers.

First he admits that his company stole the designer's work; then he pretends that it wasn't stealing because they "tweaked the design slightly;" then they flaunt the theft by sending the designer a copy of it; and then he celebrates that fact that the designer's business failed.

And he calls the designer a jerk?
 
Re: Legal issues with designer's files

Unfortunately, customary trade practices were, and apparently still are, that the designer owns the file. Now, this designer's behavior is clearly not only outrageous but also just short-sighted business practice. I suggest that the next time you get a request from a client that uses this designer, you either turn the work down or provide an "upcharge", and tell the customer why.
 
Re: Legal issues with designer's files

Hasn't anyone heard of COPYRIGHT and DIGITAL RIGHTS MANAGEMENT around here? While we don't know all the details, it appears the designer was protecting his copyright, and if it's been breached, he'll sue your butt off. You can't legally steal a musician's creation, or an author's so why should you steal a graphic designer's? If he had assigned all rights in the original contract, all well and good but if not, no question he owns copyright.

I used to do creative work for a major league US trans-national, a great customer who always paid on time. I had to sign an agreement assigning ALL copyright on my creations - and those I sub-contracted out - to the corporation. I adjusted my pricing accordingly - they paid top dollar but were happy that they owned copyright that I had assigned.

Unless you assign the right; they're yours.
 
Re: Legal issues with designer's files

i have spent some time looking into the capacity to output the file in any previously mentioned manners and they do not work - security sticks no matter where you take the file or in what form you attempt to open or output it without security

PDFkeyPro is currently the cheapest option to remove security, including the few offsite emails i was sent by salespeople concerning their windows only security removal tools

i have to agree that copyright law is very important and should be adhered to, at least for the sake of not getting the lawyers involved (see yoko ono in court this week)
however, one should always remember where the butter for your bread comes from and treat that source with kid gloves, personal experience teaches me time and again that success happens through attraction with stellar communication skills. In fact, the designer and I have spoken since and are on good speaking terms (he apologized profusely for his demeanor and actions), he is obviously impressed with the capacity for tireless efforts by professional printers such as our Printplanet selves. He will be sending work to us again when he remembers how much file ass we kicked.
 
Re: Legal issues with designer's files

I think that designers are technically correct in asserting ownership of designs, but most of the time, designers are unclear about rights and rights management and deliverables. If you make you client sign a contract, which explains everything in plain english, or work for a Large Corporation, that requires you to release your rights in plain english so that going into an assignment it is clearly understood where the client, designer stand, and you violate the clearly understood rights that is one set of facts, with clear legal conditions and consequences.

But if it is not a clearly understood relationship legally, but an informal one, then I believe that a Designer is not on firm grounds to assert rights. I believe that there is much room for misunderstanding of the ownership and the right to make modifications, the nature of the license and the deliverables It is an informal relationship which requires common sense and negotiation to ensure that both parties remain satisfied. In Massachusetts, unless a lawyer is involved on both sides, a contract is not generally enforceable ( I discovered this when I was sued in a business dispute, and the lawyer said it did not matter I had terms and conditions in a contract, eventually I prevailed) and Common Law, the phases of the moon and who you get for a judge and if your lawyer is known to the court will determine what your rights are. So normally I believe Contracts are not really practical for smaller projects, but a plan english statement deliverables, rights and obligations of the designer and the client is a good place to keep a relationship on a honest. It will count, if things go south, but it will not necessarily be a governing document if it goes to court.

Besides, unless the client is a jerk, why would you make difficult for the client. It is better business to cooperate, and keep a healthy relationship. And even if the client is a jerk, give them your art, so they will go away and not bad mouth you. Reputation, word of mouth is far more valuable than one client, or keeping one's rights.
 
Re: Legal issues with designer's files

@ Rich in Arkansas

I can't imagine why a PDF file would not be printable or, how I could make a PDF/X file that would somehow be in this condition.

Maybe this person should be sent this link ?

http://www.pdf-x.com/pdfx_123_1.php

went I went to your web site, i note you have no links or mention of PDF/X...

http://www.fultonpressink.com/body/services/epp.html

While this person may not grasp that this PDF file needs to be 'modified" - that is -processed and 'converted' -perhaps even trapped and color managed - it sounds like if they allowed the ability to 'print' that you should be able to accomplish this - what version of Prinegy are you using ?
 
Re: Legal issues with designer's files

hi
yes, we are using prinergy 3.1.0.5 - upgrading to 4 in a few weeks
i exported from acrobat as a ps - no process at RIP for encrypted PDF
tried to place it into indesign - password required to place
export to PDF/X from Acrobat - unrecognized PDF/Sig Q content not suported (report code 4000)

i am looking through PDF/X and trying to learn more about it

thanks for the feedback, the assistance I have received and the knowledge I am gaining through this project is greatly appreciated

see file info pic attached above
 
Re: Legal issues with designer's files

Daniel - an excellent post and very balanced and you're the kind of guy I like to do business with. But the world can be ugly at times and rights management is the biggest legal issue in the digital age.
Example; you have a client from heaven, great relationship of mutual trust and understanding. You do the right thing and so do they - or at least the contact you have there. Then one day they get taken over by a private equity outfit HQ's in Delaware, or the Cayman Islands. They make redundant your contact, the bread-giver. They then see all this creative stuff in their servers and decide to use it at will. They think your prices are too high so you get a letter from the new 'procurement manager' saying 'Acme Inc is rationalising its supplier base. We ask you to reduce your prices by 50% if you want to continue to be a supplier to Acme Inc.'

You walk away and then find all your years of creativity, original thinking, unique methodologies are now being handled, changed, manipulated by faceless guys in India and emailed back to Acme for printing.

You don't have a contract, you have never asserted your copyright, your 'babies' are being maimed. You have not stood up for your rights. Unless you have deep pockets, it's probably too late.

All it needs is a 50-word clause in the service agreement or letter of appointment dealing with who owns the copyright.

If creators thought of copyright in the way inventors use patents, we would have a stronger industry. Assign it to the client if you want to work for an hourly rate but if you want to build assets and wealth; make sure your truly original creations are protected as your property in the same way as Dan Brown (or his publisher) protects the text and idea of the DaVinci Code. When it passes into 'Public Domain' - all's fair but if I think someone's going to screw around with one of my creations that they don't own; I'm going to do exactly what this designer did and password protect my property in the same way I have a lock on my door at home to stop theft.

And if anyone breaks into it.......
 
Re: Legal issues with designer's files

I think the thing that we are overlooking here, is that it is unfortunate if the designer is a jerk about their rights, but they still have their rights. Poor personal behavior does not negate contractual realities. If you redo someone's design and add a few tweaks you are still *stealing* their work. If I took someone's song and changed a few words or a few notes, I am still using their copyrighted material without permission.
 

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