Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

[gordo]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

RE marktonk wrote that you do not have to use FM for Hexachrome.

Quite true. You can use AM, FM or hybrid type screening. Hexachrome uses a CMYKOG ink hue set. One of the reasons that Orange and Green were selected as the extra colors was to accommodate the screen angle constraints of AM/hybrid AM/XM screens. Because there are only 3 screen angles that don't result in objectional moiré (C,M,K) the Orange printer uses the cyan angle while the Green uses the Magenta angle since it would be very rare that those colors would exist in combination in press work. FM screens do not have the limitations of frequency, angle, and AM screening geometries, hence you can use virtually any appropriate color to extend your gamut in combination with the process colors. In the case of Kodak Staccato, for example, we have 4 unique screen patterns for the process colors and another 6 unique patterns for "extended" process colors. These screen sets are primarily used by our packaging customers using Spotless printing software to simulate and replace spot color inks by using extended process ink sets (e.g. CMYKOG, CMYKGV, CMYKRGB, etc.)
In addition, there are lithographic and visual reasons why Pantone used FM screening for their swatchbooks rather than AM/XM - but that's another thread.

There are basically two Hexachrome solutions. One is for simulating spot colors (not BTW not the PMS library) the other is to add vibrancy to contone images. On a sidebar, most printers that I've dealt with do not use "Big H" Hexachrome for their presswork. This is due to the fluorescent pigment content of Hexachrome CMYOG inks - which can be problematic in, for example, packaging applications. Instead they will use conventional CMYOG inks. So they are not really officially using Pantone Hexachrome.

Oh, and thanks marktonk for the compliment on our marketing efforts regarding Staccato screening. I hope you noticed that I only mentioned Staccato once in my responses to this thread - to answer the posted question "what screening does Hexachrome use." So, my other comments would apply equally to HD's implementation.

best gordo

 

[phantasm]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

Hi Gordo,

Thanks again for your detailed response. I also noted that the use of Hexachrome has not spread like wildfire; I think the is partly due to print issues (inks used and the fact at least a size color press is required to make it economical on a regular basis) but also due to the expense and lack of choice of design tools/support. I don't think many designers would know where to start when designing for Hexachrome.

Best wishes,

Nick

 

[markf]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

I thought the Staccato screening from Kodak was actually licensed to Kodak from Global Graphics and is the
same FM screening that you can run on a Harlequin rip?

 

[gordo]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

RE: "I thought the Staccato screening from Kodak was actually licensed to Kodak from Global Graphics and is the same FM screening that you can run on a Harlequin rip?"

About 3 or so years ago, Creo/Kodak implemented its own FM screening design and has enhanced the screening several times since then. Also, watch for a significant announcement at Drupa regarding Kodak Staccato screening.

best, gordo

 

[John W]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

I can tell you through major testing on press that ran Creo (Kodak) stochastic screening as well as conventional screening ctp and also compared various platesetters and plate brands plus two ink different sets; for folding carton work, specifically recycled CCNB (80 Brite), that stochastic will not work well! The tooth of the cardboard causes a terrible mottle with the fine screening, (imagine the valleys of the rough surface vs the flat top surface which print differently).
I have actual printed test samples done at 20, 25, 35 micron on both SBS and CCNB and the CCNB is a failure IMO. The results went into a book with some 40 pages of samples and three times at press!
If this helps you perhaps understand why folding carton printers may not offer this type of FM screening, well there you are.

John W

 

[catman]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

Now or in the future you might consider Aurelon ICISS. Its not cheap but it is remarkable software. You might be able to print that job with four colours. I no longer work in a shop that uses it, however what it does is allow you to print 5, 6, 7 color jobs using 4 or 5 colors.

You would probably have to rasterize the artwork. Then one samples color areas that are out of cmyk gamut. You get the LAB (or maybe HSB) value and find a Pantone color that most closely matches that. It computes all the numbers and gray balance. The job might be printable using darker pms green, pms 185, a pms black and cyan.

I wish I had saved some sample. For instance we had to print some iris flowers. Instead of trying to match the color in cmyk or a touch plate or stochastic we used Black, yellow, cyan and Pantone Violet. Best reproduction of violets I've seen.

Doesn't stochastic have dot gain gain gain? The more perimeter/circumference the more the gain.

alan

Edited by: alan ruta on May 6, 2008 3:59 PM

 

[catman]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

" I also noted that the use of Hexachrome has not spread like wildfire; I think the is partly due to print issues (inks used and the fact at least a size color press is required to make it economical on a regular basis) but also due to the expense and lack of choice of design tools/support. I don't think many designers would know where to start when designing for Hexachrome."

I agree. Putting jobs on 6c presses gets expensive. What if you also want to varnish? I worked with Hexachrome years ago (I worked at the printer that did the 1st Hexachrome fan book for Pantone. At the time the separations were just weird. Perhaps they are much better now.

alan

 

[gordo]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

RE: alan ruta wrote:

"Doesn't stochastic have dot gain gain gain? The more perimeter/circumference the more the gain."

The higher initial dot gain with stochastic/FM screening, as with any high frequency screening, is normalized by the use of compensation tone curves, typically applied to the plate. With some vendor's implementations the screens are precompensated for average dot gains. The extra initial dot gain is therefore a non-issue.

best, gordo

 

[cjwworld]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

Thanks Gordon.

Can you explain the simple steps to get involved in this type of screening.

Do you have to have expensive RIP to pull that off.

and also what about the press? do you have to have a press that can go less than 30% dot gain?

I am intrigue with this issue. I am a Production Manager who wears several hats. I am the first Pressman and I can understand some negativity on 'some' But I also have seen great improvements made when the whole company is committed to change.

can you enlighten me please

Chris

 

[30YearsandCounting]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

Gordon wrote...
"The higher initial dot gain with stochastic/FM screening, as with any high frequency screening, is normalized by the use of compensation tone curves, typically applied to the plate. With some vendor's implementations the screens are precompensated for average dot gains. The extra initial dot gain is therefore a non-issue."

I understand that when everyone and everything is working properly that that is the case... but some printers I have talked to tell me that this has been their biggest challenge in making stochastic work on a day-in and day-out basis. This is probably truer when management doesn't "buy-in" to the financial reality that all processes, equipment and conditions have to be maintained to a very high level. I think it's only a "non-issue", if it works consistently... and I know several printers who because of that have chosen to go with hybrid screening instead.

 

[gordo]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

RE: 30yearsand...wrote:

"I understand that when everyone and everything is working properly that that is the case... but some printers I have talked to tell me that this has been their biggest challenge in making stochastic work on a day-in and day-out basis. This is probably truer when management doesn't "buy-in" to the financial reality that all processes, equipment and conditions have to be maintained to a very high level. I think it's only a "non-issue", if it works consistently... and I know several printers who because of that have chosen to go with hybrid screening instead."

From a press point of view, the size of the dot being printed is more important than how it is organized. AM,FM, XM, whatever, as the frequency goes up the dots get smaller. As the dots get smaller, ink and water performance changes. The result is that you may, or you may not have issues. I know a printer just outside of Toronto Canada who switched from a 150 lpi AM film workflow to 10 micron stochastic without any issues, and I know many printers who struggle with 175 lpi AM on modern presses.
Here's a pic of a fairly antique Planeta press churning out several hundred thousand cereal boxes using a 25 micron stochastic screen. And if you've ever seen the presses that print yellow pages phone directories using stochastic screening, you'll appreciate that those presses may not be in perfect condition either.

!http://www.bytephoto.com/photopost/data/500/10692PlanetaPress.jpg!

I do agree with you about the need for management buy-in to providing the funds required for equipment maintenance and training for employees to do their jobs effectively. But that's a business issue, not a technical one. Switching to a hybrid screen will not compensate for poor press maintenance or lack of prepress/pressroom training. It may even make it worse.

best, gordo

 

[gordo]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

Chris,

To try and answer your question about implementation. Your profile suggests a newspaper application. The basics are:
You would likely use a "36" micron stochastic (equals 275 lpi AM, highlight dot is equivalent to a 1% dot at 80 lpi or 2% at 110 lpi)
You need a well running, reliable, stable, existing print condition. This is needed in order to build curves for your plates to align your FM tone response to your existing AM screening. This is done by running an uncalibrated FM plate on press and measuring the tonal response (dot gain) vs your current AM dot gain. You can build the compensation curves manually or if your workflow permits, automatically.
You should involve your ink and fountain solution providers. The popularity of this type of screening has meant that many have identified series of inks in their inventory that are better suited to fine screen printing. They can also help identify any existing conditions that may pose a barrier to your success. For newspaper application there are two issues that sometimes arise. First, ink tack and stiffness is often used to "fix" dot gain issues on press. This type of ink can be problematic with finer screens such as FM. You may need a weaker ink with good flow and transfer qualities. The other issue is related to the black printer. The black ink used is sometimes of very poor quality relative to the CMY inks and hence may need to be changed for a different series.

I'll send you a more detailed white paper off-line.

best, gordo

 

[phantasm]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

Hi all,

Small update report just in case anybody is interested ;-)

I have concluded that stochastic screening is just too specialised for most designers to be able to simply "pop down" to their local printers and expect them to say "yes". The lead for a UK printer given on this thread was excellent, but sadly due to the multiplying cost factor, it would have been unrealistic - but I am sure the result would have been perfect.

So I resigned myself this morning to work on a idea given by Gordo when discussing Hexachrome printing. I went back to the design and tried to ensure that conventional screening could be used by manually ensuring no screen angle clashes would occur. I basically then have the ability to lay down any 3 inks + yellow in a given area.

I was nicely getting through that task (there would have been a slight compromise on color vibrancy) when the local printer I was originally working with let me know that they have got the test stochastic screening back from their supplier and will now give it a go next Thursday. Many thanks for their work on this - they really have been going out of their way!

In all, I see this whole experience as a great experiment now. I am hopeful the result will be as I expect. But even more so, it has given me an idea for some software development that can try to bridge the design and print gap that exists in this area. Most designers only use 10% of a spot ink's potential; it would be great to unlock the remainder regardless of their experience or if their printer has even heard of "stochastic" or not!

Best wishes,

Nick

 

[[email protected]]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

Here is an off-shore printer in Hong Kong who can handle the stochastic /FM screening and Hi-Fi printing for you:

www.candcprinting.com

But I am sure there must be a lot of printers in UK who can do this. You may contact your Printweek, Printing World for list of printers who can do stochastic screening.

Hi-Fi printing will enable a much larger printing gamut. You only need to weigh its additional charges against its added value (by showing more colors to the auidence)

Ken Lee

 

[PantherMac]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

> {quote:title=phantasm wrote:}{quote}
> I don't think many designers would know where to start when designing for Hexachrome.

My experience exactly Nick. Sad, too.
In my past life I worked as the prepress sys. admin for a large US packaging printer, and we did a lot of High Fidelity Printing (none of it 'hexachrome'). The Iciss software was the best tool we had for doing this sort of work. Fantastic product (and Glynn Hartley was an absolute delight to work with!) Having Artpro and a couple Recipe Color KA's helped a wee bit, too, but I'd digress.

Great thread, interesting read, but it is surprising how few companies foray into this area. Some exciting stuff can be done, but it takes a little effort and time (err... I meant to say money).

- Mac

 

[phantasm]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

> {quote:title=PantherMac wrote:}{quote}
> My experience exactly Nick. Sad, too.
> In my past life I worked as the prepress sys. admin for a large US packaging printer, and we did a lot of High Fidelity Printing (none of it 'hexachrome'). The Iciss software was the best tool we had for doing this sort of work. Fantastic product (and Glynn Hartley was an absolute delight to work with!) Having Artpro and a couple Recipe Color KA's helped a wee bit, too, but I'd digress.
>
> Great thread, interesting read, but it is surprising how few companies foray into this area. Some exciting stuff can be done, but it takes a little effort and time (err... I meant to say money).

Hi Mac,

Many thanks for mentioning the "ICISS" software. It's strange that I have never previously come across this! I had a look at both [Aurelon|http://www.aurelon.com/EN/html/nf_products.htm]'s website (the developers) and [Special Colour|http://www.specialcolor.com/iciss/iciss.html]'s website (the distributor based in the UK). Sadly there appears to be no downloadable demo version and the details are pretty scarce.

I'd be very interested to learn of your experience of this package. Was it flexible? Ease of use? Do you have an idea of the cost?

Best wishes,

Nick

Edited by: Nicholas van der Walle on May 12, 2008 6:54 AM

 

[PantherMac]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

Hi Nick,

At my last job, we did a lot of high end packaging, multi-color (5-8), synthetic substrates, etc... We had evaluated Pantone's flavor of Hi-fi, but it didn't 'fit' for us.. We'd been doing our own "Hi-Fi" for years on the old 4-C press swapping Reflex in for Black (and adjusting the seps in the Darkroom/Photoshop manually), but it was very hit-and-miss (getting the Kodak Approval Recipe color proofers was very, VERY helpful with this work). The market (packaging in particular) was moving up towards the 6-Color process, and higher end systems like Focaltone etc., not just splitting fountains/saving inks on press.

So after looking around in the market for a while, we settled on Iciss because of the flexibility to use any combination of any colors. Hexachrome from Pantone only offered _their_ flavor of Hi-Fi, and Orange/Green or Purple didn't always work for us (lots of trade/brand PMS inks, couldn't be simulated (customer wanted PMS) and some didn't simulate well - even in Hex). We did have some work that switched over well to CMYKOG (the 6-C press ran it for days at a time w/o washing up), but that's a separate story (and someone would have to buy me a pint!).

The price for Iciss was cheap, relatively (couple grand $$ USD, I think? We only bought one license), and we got the on-site training w/ Glynn Hartley, whenever he next came state-side. All total I think it was around $5k for the PO (this was maybe 5-6 years ago?) We also had a heavy investment in Artpro on the Desktop for trapping and separations, and had been making "touch" plates for years, Iciss was simply "the proper tool" for what we'd been doing all along (in a bastardly fashion). It was a fabulous tool for it though. Man, I wish I was a designer working w/ this kind of flexibility. It was truly as nice and simple of a tool as advertised. Took a bit to 'get it'. Lots of times, it takes operators a while to get the flavor for a new tool, new way of thinking/working. It was different from what we did in the past, but once integrated into our workflow, was very easy to use, and produced predictable, reliable files every time. I recommend the training, it really helped w/ 'getting' the concepts (the conversion process, for proper color fidelity, took some practice, and was the hardest concept to understand). Modern shops doing lots of color management and working w/ those kinds of concepts now will acclimate better.

I would eMail the sales address off the website, see if there is a demo you can try. I believe what they do is ask for your source file, separations desired (and densities, etc.), and then they'll return you the Hi Fi file (proof as desired). We worked w/ the one fellow, Glynn, I believe he was the patent owner/technology guy or something.. He had sold it to Special Color and was working for them (in the sales capacity for the product), but this was years ago, who know's what's happened since then. Regardless, if you do hook up w/ Glynn, just shut up, listen, and do what he says. Man knows his shit. LOL!

All around, very happy w/ that product when we used it. Performed as advertised, was not a support headache (it simply 'worked'.. operator performance determined the quality of the final product - having the recipe color KA's was critical for this being successful). Training was well worth the money, he came in and spent the entire day working side-by-side w/ our entire prepress crew. The purchase price of the training bought him for the whole day, whatever, whomever, however many you wanted to train. in the morning we did his 4-hour canned demo for everyone, then the 3 top operators spent the afternoon w/ him running lots of files through and Q&A. He was a delightful gentleman to work with, and very helpful with questions after the sale. I was extremely pleased w/ owning that product. Admittedly it's a wee pricey for a smaller shop (at $40+ mil USD in sales, a couple grand wasn't an issue), but if you do specialized work, you own specialized tools. This one was worth the price, and were I in that field today, I'd purchase it in a heartbeat again. Pushing this tech out to the designer/customer, was very, very fun.


- Mac

 

[phantasm]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

Hi Mac,

Many thanks once more for a great response. I am getting the feeling you liked it ;-)

I'll have a further investigation into this software. But just one question, if you don't mind (and related to this thread) - and something I will get around to asking the developers too; could you specify the screening method? For example, if you knew you had access to stochastic (or any variant of FM) screening, there would be not immediate limit to the ink combinations used. But if you used conventional AM screening, surely there would be some system to ensure only certain inks were combined in one area to limit Moire effects?

Best wishes,

Nick

 

[PeterA]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

Nicholas and Gordon sorry to be so slow to come back - I lost my ID

NIck - 7 coloiur is a non starter as we all have max 6 colour presses except TB who print paint chip cards

Gordon - the main print buyers in the UK want to be able top swop work around and prefer 200 screen printed Fogra than a special FM.

Peter

 

[phantasm]

Re: Finding a printer that caters for Stochastic/FM screening

> {quote:title=pga wrote:}{quote}
> NIck - 7 coloiur is a non starter as we all have max 6 colour presses except TB who print paint chip cards

Hi Peter,

No problem. And thanks for getting back on this

Nick