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  • Registration question

    Hi All,
    I been wondering how easy or difficult it is to trap a 4C (with say 240~280 ink limit as default) job on sheet feed press? What is the absolute highest ink limit have you pressman experience with? Is 300 or higher ink limit with rich 4C black impossible to maintain trap and registration? Lastly, is slowing down press to get registration correct a big no-no practice or is it a common solution to getting a difficult job print correctly?


  • #2
    Re: Registration question

    You talking about rich blacks?



    • #3
      Re: Registration question


      i dont understand what you mean when you say trap 4c with 300 Tac. If you mean is it easy to get colour, then yes once you get close to weights that much ink looks well dark and rich and density deviations dont make that big a difference. as for register that depends on a lot on placement of image on sheet, stock weight and stock quality. Ive ran 400 Tac on too many occasions on 130gsm without much registration issues,any lower than that and cheeper stocks will stretch more and cause hassle. Speed affects register as a faster speed of production leads to a higher tack of ink at point of transfer causing more forces stretching the paper, so yeh slow it down and make a nice job of it.



      • #4
        Re: Registration question

        you mention registration, but then trapping, in reference to total ink
        are you referring to ink-on-ink trapping? if so, this would be a question with many variables attributing to the correct answer

        each press has different blanket pressures, dependent on the press and the blanket's age, and ink densities that press can achieve
        we have some jobs that just cannot be run on presses with lesser technologies because the will not hold enough ink

        the answer would probably be best answered by consulting with the press operator or pressroom supervisor


        • #5
          Re: Registration question

          Sorry for the unclear questions.

          I think Rich's response is closer to what I am trying to learn and understand. Let's say our printer says they can handle photoshop 4C Blk, which is easy 300 total ink. How does the few spreads within a design affect registration and trapping for the entire job? Are the greatest potential for mis-registration only limited to the few spreads with rich black?

          We have a product set up with 260 4C Blk on a selected spreads. The rich black is essential to bring out the contrast against images on the spread, at the same time we have roughly 9 pt san serif knockout text... I know we are cutting it close with the small font size, but again, our product is driven by design. It's essential to maintain the design if possible. Does this sound like we are pushing a printer to the limit or clearly a doable case?

          Thanks for helping me to understand the press end of the issue.


          • #6
            Re: Registration question

            260 is more than you need
            60-40-20-100 - is a wonderful SuperBlack
            and it is only 220 (if you are worried - drop the yelo)
            If you can design your job for the press you know is running it
            and how it will be imposed
            plan your 16 pagers so that your SuperBlack pages
            never fall on the tail corners.
            Spring for a quality stock.
            The trap pull backs (as long as your prepress will adjust them properly)
            will save your fine lines.



            • #7
              Re: Registration question

              Hi MSD,
              This printer and their CSR were the one that answered my survey with 300 ink limit 4C Blk, part of my reason for pushing higher 4C Blk is to start testing how capable our printers are. I often can't rely on our production dept and the CSRs they work with to tell me the truth. There is always a distortion of what is really possible vs what is easiest for them, I like to learn the former.

              That said, I know I have seen some pretty dense 4C Blk printed and trap correctly. Perhaps it's no easy task, but we need to know what our printers are really capable of printing, hence allow our art dept push their design and color usage further.

              I appreciate the quick feedback, you just gave me another super black to add to our list. I'll check the layouts tomorrow to see if any super black pages falls on tail corners.


              • #8
                Re: Registration question

                If you are trying to get good contrast between a black and some artwork (photos) on a spread (I'm guessing you want some nice visual appeal), have you considered using a gloss varnish or spot aqueous over the black in place of the rich black?
                By the time I walk out of here, I'm going to be a lean, mean, prepress machine...


                • #9
                  Re: Registration question


                  Ask your printer if they can do a "pullback" or "keep away" of the c,m,y in the reversed out white areas. Our Rampage workflow can do it automatically or manually if need be. This exact feature was designed solely for misregistration. I'd be surprised if they can't do it.

                  Anybody out there with a workflow that can't do a pullback in the rich black areas? I'd be curious to know.



                  • #10
                    Re: Registration question

                    in regards to any text that is reversed out, or very light, on a rich black background

                    take all text and art and stroke it with a 1/2 point line of 100% black only
                    duplicate the same text & art and layer it above the previous version, then remove the stroke from the duplicate top layer
                    this will result in text and art that looks exactly the same as before, but has a 1/4 point of black outside of it on a layer below
                    -this will keep any non-black background pixels from having an opportunity to mis-register on the press and contaminate the reversed text with fuzziness. also, if any of the background image is less than 100% black (frequent with a photoshop created rich black) it will give it a sharper edge on the outside of the light areas

                    AN ALTERNATIVE FOR THE PREPRESS PEOPLES ALL OVER THE WORLD with a good RIP (like our prinergy)
                    [only works with reversed-out text, but creativity will brings other good results]
                    fill all reversed out text with something like 15% of Cool Gray 2
                    rip as normal and do not convert cool gray to process
                    after ripping and trapping (prinergy uses a trapping tool plug-in for acrobat) select all your traps and remove the CMY from the trapped area
                    do not output the cool gray plate
                    -the cool gray allows the CMYK (& Bump plates) to have something to trap to, thus a trapped area to pull back
                    -we also use this method to pull back the trap area of a bump plate

                    If anyone knows how to do a pull back in Prinergy in another fashion, please let me know. I converted to prinergy from a cranky brisque 3 years ago and still learn something new as often as I can.


                    • #11
                      Re: Registration question


                      I think you're pushing rich black beyond anything you need to. 30, 20, 20, 100 gets plenty dense, yields a neutral black, and allows a spreadback to be generated (if the rich black is a vector). The only time I stray from this mix is if I'm matching the black of a CT.

                      If your 9 pt reverse type is over a CT, then you're screwed. 9 pt reverse type is approaching the limits of offset, and should be rethought. Gets hard to print, gets hard to read. Sorry, I just never bought into the Form over Function arguments. That's McIntosh and Wright designing chairs that nobody could sit in.

                      I'm also wondering why you feel you've got to "test" your print providers.

                      No, slowing the press is not the route to take, unless you're printing art reproductions or something like that. Slowing the press costs money.

                      Lastly, you haven't talked at all about substrate or printing process. These are the two biggest determiners of allowable TAC and registration potential.



                      • #12
                        Re: Registration question

                        Hi Kevin,
                        Sorry, varnish is not use for interior of this product, hence not an option.


                        • #13
                          Re: Registration question

                          Hi Erik,
                          Thanks for the suggest. I believe this printer does run RAMpage. I'll be sure to question them if they kick this job back. So far, no news is good news.


                          • #14
                            Re: Registration question

                            Hi Rich at Ark,
                            Thank you for offering the best solutions and explain them in detail. I never thought of using thin stokes as a stopper.

                            BTW, do you have any recommendation on good books regarding this topic?

                            You rock!


                            • #15
                              Re: Registration question

                              Hi Rich Apollo,

                              We recently used 40,30,30,100 on another product and that was pretty good as well. The real issue is we have is using at least a dozen diff. active printers, domestic+oversea, none are too descriptive in what their full capabilities are. Survey results are only useful if we hold them accountable. If a printer reply to us, stating they can handle PDF1.5~ and calls back to say they can't work with our transparency and layers PDF export from InDesign, then we know someone isn't being straight.

                              As for substrate or actual printing process info, we don't have that, which makes this entire process more frustrating and uncertain than it needs to be and I'm trying to change that and remove the guesswork. Since I don't deal with CSR nor their pre press dept (they are very protective about them... dunno why), then I'm left with one option and that's to throw them a few bones and see if they sink or swim. Sound fair? We'll likely add more technical questions on our next survey... although, the last one was like pulling teeth, you'll surprised how secretive oversea printers are.

                              Design is never about form over function, form IS function.


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