Trapping

Re: Trapping

It may need trapping even if it's in process. In fact, each time you have adjacent color areas with no or very little common components, such as a red zone (magenta+yellow) touching a cyan zone you need trapping. The amount (width) of trapping may vary.
 
Re: Trapping

How's it, Chief.

There is a lack of educational resources on trapping. The GATF bookstore doesn't seem to have anything on trapping. On Amazon I found one book, +The Complete Guide to Trapping+ by Brian P. Lawler, which I had to order second-hand. It's very dated, nonetheless, while the methods by which we arrive at 'traps' have changed (from vacuum-frames to software) the raison d'etre endures.

I rely on our RIP's in-built trapping; but I don't trust it. It's scary leaving it all to a computer and not knowing what's going on inside (and it probably traps in a raster format). If our jobs justified it , I would rather have control over how they spread and choke. I think that's what they call 'interactive' trapping - when it's done digitally, but manually.

Anyone know of good resources or software? Anyone use LucidDream? What's that like?
 
Re: Trapping

Nicolas,

We offer both in rip and off rip trapping, Our off rip trapping won a GATF Intertech award. It was named Surpertrap and is an Adobe Acrobat pugin. In fact, it was the first true PDF trapping engine. You could trap a PDF and anyone with a Acrobat reader could view the traps. This has migrated over the years to several new versions and also a name change to Prinect Trap Editor. Since last January, we have been trapping transparency. And the traps are editable. So you can batch process files, view and edit if needed. You can also customize trapping rules. Here is link: [http://www.heidelberg.com/www/html/..._tools/prepress/prinect_trap_editor,overview]

Chiefs420,

In North America, trapping is the norm, some countries it is not. I now know from reading Nicolas post it is also used in South Africa, it is not used in some Asian countries. So trapping seems to be accepted or not depending on location. I do agree you would want to trap to avoid flashes of white or color as most of us do in the U.S.

Regards,

Mark Tonkovich
Heidelberg USA
Product Manager, CtP & Proofing
 
Re: Trapping

We may or may not trap a 4cp job.. just depends on what common color there is on touching elements. Usually an operator decision, the majority of the time we run it through trapping just so it's taken care of.
 
Re: Trapping

There truly is no black and white rules for trapping it seems. It's religion and is similar to 20 guys debating what is the best beer.

I think it's important to know how much can be intelligently automated for your particular output (offset, web, flexo) as well as a quickly handled toolset to break those rules when a trap would look better changed.

The corrugated folding carton boys tend to have the biggest traps and demand the most for mitering, trap trimming and editability.

I am really curious how those folks in Europe and elsewhere that don't trap feel about going trap-commando. Is it just better press conditions, or they just don't care about a few flashes here and there?

Grant me the serenity to trap the borders I cannot change and the neutral density to know the difference.
Amen.
AL
 
Re: Trapping

"Grant me the serenity to trap the borders I cannot change and the neutral density to know the difference.
Amen."

Allan,

ROFLMAO. That's great. I love it. I needed it. Thanks for the laugh.

Don
 
Re: Trapping

Allen
I am in Europe and started trapping using Scitex in about 1995 - I can remember showing clients it the first time - it was only when they pointed out that they thought the black lines were a bit heavy did we reduce the size of the trap!!!.
I can remember we competed against Delta -who said they only trapped pages that needed it. Then I think in the Creo/ Heidelberg mess Creo lost the trapping soft ware. We still trap in (Creo/Kodak) trapper. Mettalics still catch us out though

Peter
we never offer clients the choice - everything we can we trap
 
Re: Trapping

We trap by hand at application level. I had some doozy files that I took around to the in-rip trapping systems and all but one of those systems failed. The one that was successful however, was extremely expensive. This is folding carton trapping with metallic, spot color and process.
All of the failing trappers trapped in seconds, some areas correctly and others not. When the parameters were modified to correct the areas that were not trapped properly, they became correct while previously correct areas were now incorrect. Freakin' useless!
Because 90% of our work comes in wrong anyway, we tear jobs down and rebuild them to fit our productions dies and glueing equipment and manual trap at the same time as we optimize the files.
Our technique is taught within the shop and through our trade school in Toronto for those union members that desire it. I have even been known to hang a shingle the odd time, Have Manual Trap Technique, Will Travel. The course occupies two large four inch binders and is always in need of updating to suit the newer applications, especially now that we have so much transparency in use. BTW, the course covers nearly everything and takes about 90 hrs.
A big pet peave of ours is trapping within a Photoshop image. The vast majority of auto trappers do not do this, period. I know of only one that can and it is using the oldest raster trapping technique and therefore works. Object based trapping will not work since the trapping is wanted internally within the object. This problem was exacerbated by adding vector text within Photoshop (such as a bright yellow heading inside a deep blue sea image).
Of course we do that trapping within Photoshop on the native file and would immediately extract such an image if embedded, trap it and return to the build file.
Trapping is always necessary when printing on recycled cardboard and on any cardboard really if printed offset. I suppose a digital press might get away with less trap and if a single cylinder type device might get away with no trap, but I'd bet a week's wages, it would still need trap if it was printed on cardboard seconds, a common thing nowadays.

John
 
Re: Trapping

John,

Which program that did auto-trapping actually did it correct? (and was it a PDF trapper?)

Don
 
Re: Trapping

Back in 98-99, I did Applications testing for Supertrap on behalf of Heidelberg with the joint venture of Heidelberg/Creo. I did the beta site tour with it. They had the trapper and the color management portion of Prinergy .The rest was pure Canadian code.

When Creo decided to write our own color management and trapper, we had Supertrap as a yardstick for PDF trapping. I am proud of the efforts of the team that made a much easier to use interface that still does a really nice job.

When Creo picked up Scitex, there was quite the pile of patents that those folks had captured for decades. The decision to write a trapper that had the logic of old, with the PDF body of new was unique.

I just saw an AGFA file yesterday that had some traps that nobody saw until output that runs ticketyboo through Prinergy.

Many of the features that were tested with the Trap Editor (Creo) were tested with the big boys in folding carton land who had massive traps.

My wife still calls me a loser when I judge the trapping on a bus billboard...
AL
 
Re: Trapping

Don,

It was Dalim and it was using a ps workflow and just before they went on their jdf tear
(As you well know, I continue to use native).

For pdf trapping, I would look seriously at Neo (although expensive). I was impressed with the stunning power of this app at first glance. However, I have not done an indepth study of pdf trappers yet but expect will have to sometime next year.

Cheers,

John
 
Re: Trapping

John,

Thanks for that. Since I already use a raster trapper, I guess I was hoping the one you liked was a vector trapper/object trapper/PDF trapper. I'm impressed with Neo also. Very impressed (would like it in my workflow). I just haven't had the opportunity to test trapping with it.

Thanks for your response.

Don
 
Re: Trapping

Hi Allan,

Funny, you mentioned using Supertrap back in 98-99. You memory of this great GATF Intertech award winning software is a bit old. Supertrap was the worlds first true PDF trapping engine. You are right that the trapping and color management were Heidelbergs contribution to Prinergy. The knowledge behind it hails from high end workstations such as the Hell Chromacom and Davinci. You forgot we also offer as an option the best in class patented Irrational Screening. IS hails back to Dr. Hell, the inventor of electronic screening. No postscript screening moire' and real conventional angles. I also beleive we had programmed the GUI but let you keep it. But the rest was Heideleberg code that we owned and you did not have access to anymore. Now, we did listen to our users requests and unbundled the trapping and offer it as an Acrobat plugin so everyone using PDF could use it without having to buy the complete workflow. Allot has changed since you worked with it. The trapping engine has been called Prinect Trap Editor and you are a few versions removed. Did you know it traps tranparency for about a year now? Yes, this is the core trapping for our Printready workflow but is still avialbile as an Acrobat plugin. In fact, our color management tools are also part of Printready or as a standalone Acrobat plugin, Prinect Color Editor. This also has been able to color manage transparency for about a year.

So, if anyone needs a great PDF trapping or color management solution but does not need a complete workflow, check out Prinect Trap Editor and Color Editor, you only have to purchase what you need. Or if you need a roubust workflow designed with JDF at it core, and not an after thought add on, look at Printready.

http://www.heidelberg.com/www/html/...prinect_trap_editor,overview?contentid=281331

http://www.heidelberg.com/www/html/...rinect_color_editor,overview?contentid=281324

By the way, does Kodak offer their trapping and color management as a stand alone application?


Regards,

Mark Tonkovich
Heidelberg USA
Product Manager, CtP & Proofing
 
Re: Trapping

Prinect Trap Editor is a killer trapping program. Very fast, easy to use and some very cool features.
Like the Map Spot Colors feature, you can Trap all pages, trap a single page, trap individual elements, edit individual traps, create huge traps on one part of the page and small traps on another part of the same page, select objetcs with same color & overprint... and yes, it does a great job on Layered PDFs w/ transparencies. I've used it since the Supertrap days, and very highly recommend it.
Vee
 
Re: Trapping

Careful slamming (Creo) Kodak too hard Mark.

As an end user, and avid Kodak supporter, Prinergy brought alot to us in late 1999. Albeit your trapping was the centerpiece of their workflow, They were very successful in bringing together Adobe Open technology and stringing all the pieces together, imposition, Ripping, PDF creation from PS, etc... Yeah, alot has happened since 1999 but if you trace back Prinects roots you will find Prinergy. I would argue it was very beneficial for both parties.

I would agree however that in the world of trapping your product is top shelf, and I would highly recommend it as a great PDF trapping tool.
 
Re: Trapping


Hi Allen Filson

I am sorry if you took my response as a slamming, I am just clarifying the details because some of the statements Allan Larson of Kodak made are incorrect. I copied his post below and colored it red with my response in blue

{color:#ff0000}Back in 98-99, I did Applications testing for Supertrap on behalf of Heidelberg with the joint venture of Heidelberg/Creo. I did the beta site tour with it. They had the trapper and the color management portion of Prinergy .The rest was pure Canadian code.

{color}{color:#003366}As I stated, Heidelberg also brought forth Irrational Screening and the GUI to Prinergy. Come to think of it, we also integrated our imposition software, SignaStation. so we did bring more to Prinergy than Allan stated and none of the above was Canadian code but German{color}

{color:#ff0000}When Creo decided to write our own color management and trapper, we had Supertrap as a yardstick for PDF trapping. I am proud of the efforts of the team that made a much easier to use interface that still does a really nice job.

{color}{color:#003366}Allan's opinion is the Kodak Trapping engine is "easier to use" but he worked with Supertrap, not the current version Prinect Trap Editor, which is quite a few versions newer than Supertrap.
{color}
{color:#ff0000}When Creo picked up Scitex, there was quite the pile of patents that those folks had captured for decades. The decision to write a trapper that had the logic of old, with the PDF body of new was unique.
{color}
{color:#003366}"Logic of old with the PDF body of new was unique", how so when Supertrap predates the Kodak trapper and Supertraps heritage is the Hell Chromacom and Linotype-Hell Davinci. Now how is that unique when we did it first with Suppertrap?{color}

{color:#ff0000}I just saw an AGFA file yesterday that had some traps that nobody saw until output that runs ticketyboo through Prinergy.
{color}
{color:#003366}No comment{color}

I do thank you for your comments on our trapping engine, I am quite proud of it. And I do agree we all learned from Prinergy, it is a good workflow and help us decide when programming Prinect Printready, to make Printready the first workflow to be written with JDF as it's core. Now that's unique. We also listened to the users and unblundled the trapping and color management modules and offer them as standalone Acrobat Plugins.

Regards,



Mark Tonkovich


Heidelberg USA
Product Manager, CtP & Proofing
 
Re: Trapping

On the topic of what Heidelberg has to offer, and as an end user & avid supporter myself-
(No harm meant to your beloved Kreodak Allen or any of you..)

It's already been established in this thread, that the Trapping software is "top shelf".. but the IS Screening Mark mentioned always seems to fly under the radar. After all, the screening is where all of the magic really happens.
Just think, you used to have dedicated hardware just to create those little dots... now it's software!

IS has the largest possible area of screening, (I can't find the exact numbers right now, but it's in the Expert Guide, An Introduction to Screening Technology on their website..) without error. That means NO moire pattern. Ever. Since our install of Meta/Signa/Prosetter 5+ years ago, we've not had a single moire pattern on press. Not once. We run 2540/200lpi IS Classic w/ Smooth Elliptical dot and it's the most beautiful screen I've ever seen. Stochastic has nothing on this 2540/200 IS - IMO. You hardly see a dot pattern, it's super smooth even through the skin tones due to the accuracy of the screening. Get some samples and see for yourself. You will not be disappointed.

Heidelberg's color management... is as well top shelf. Print Open & ColorProof Pro are phenomenal applications.
Easy to use and produce stellar results. Even better is how well tied in all of the products are. They are all well planned and designed to work together without feeling like an after thought, or using a third party for part of your workflow/software, etc. Most of us probably have dealt with more than one vendor at the same time, on a project and more often than not - it's a bout of finger pointing and accusations.

And as good as all the software & hardware are, they wouldn't be nearly as good without the fantastic support we've received over the years. I really can't say enough about our relationship with them as a vendor. No, make that a partner.

Xerox on the other hand... not so great in my experience.

Vee
 

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