Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

Hi Michael,
I actually found the same bookmark page already and cropping info looks interesting as well.

Thank you.

Edited by: Tech on Nov 21, 2007 1:26 PM
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

Hi David,
Let's just agree we have a difference in workflow, what applies to your clients isn't true for us. Our deadlines are more flexible, we don't have a need for a more automated workflow either. I'm surprised there isn't really any monetary issue here, but that's just my opinion.

Different workflow requires different solutions. For now, we don't have a need for PitStop and my current concern is really just removing crop marks for web division. If they are happy with masked out crop marks from Acrobat, that will be our solution. If not we'll invest in a copy of PitStop.

As for converting RGB files to 2 color... I forgot to mention these images are supposed to be duotones as well.
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

okay, Tech --

-- now why oh why would the web division care if they are duotones?

If you want bookmarks - you do mean PDF/Acrobat bookmarks, right ?

Your not speaking about real 'we need the final version to have printed tabs inserted' like book marks, right ?

- was the 'web division' that you mentioned in your original question - you are speaking about the "internet" web, or are we all chasing the wrong web idea, like web in the 'we use our web fed printing press' type web ?

Perspiring behinds, like inquiring minds - want to know !
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

oh - forgot to mention - if you do have RGB - or even CMYK PDF files - you can use a PitStop action to convert either/or to duotone. When I worked for Enfocus, we often showed this in our demo on the trade show floor.

This Action (if i recall, but i am old now) was created especially for Collene Isabell (not sure if she still works there) was the person at Microsoft that had to release PDF files for the manuall localizations of the Microsoft manuals (Russian, Spanish, French. etc..) - she would get the localized versions of the maunual from the counties and convert the PDF files (They were converted to PDF at the country location due to font issues) and then convert the Microsoft Word files (with RGB) into duotone (in this case, all screen captures to greyscale, all RGB type to black only and all objects that were not black to "Spot Blue" - so you then had a two color PDF.

Hope we are getting closer to answering your question !

[Michael Jahn|http://michaelejahn.blogspot.com/2007/01/adobe-mars-adobe-is-working-on-way-to.html]
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

> {quote:title=michaelejahn wrote:}{quote}
> okay, Tech --
>
> -- now why oh why would the web division care if they are duotones?
>
> If you want bookmarks - you do mean PDF/Acrobat bookmarks, right ?
>
> Your not speaking about real 'we need the final version to have printed tabs inserted' like book marks, right ?
>
> - was the 'web division' that you mentioned in your original question - you are speaking about the "internet" web, or are we all chasing the wrong web idea, like web in the 'we use our web fed printing press' type web ?
>
> Perspiring behinds, like inquiring minds - want to know !


LOL, the more I'm try to explain our workflow the more confusing this gets?

1) the RGB in PDF story is meant to illustrate the point that if someone is driving a BMW doesn't means they know exactly what they are doing behind the wheel... in this case, i'm referring to a division within our business, whom has PitStop just to have it for show.

2) By "web", I meant internet/our online store... this whole PDF for our online store requires bookmarks for navigation... this isn't what troubles me. I'm already testing some demo acrobat bookmark plug-ins... none of which I like nor find it intuitive to use.
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

> {quote:title=michaelejahn wrote:}{quote}
> oh - forgot to mention - if you do have RGB - or even CMYK PDF files - you can use a PitStop action to convert either/or to duotone. When I worked for Enfocus, we often showed this in our demo on the trade show floor.
>
> This Action (if i recall, but i am old now) was created especially for Collene Isabell (not sure if she still works there) was the person at Microsoft that had to release PDF files for the manuall localizations of the Microsoft manuals (Russian, Spanish, French. etc..) - she would get the localized versions of the maunual from the counties and convert the PDF files (They were converted to PDF at the country location due to font issues) and then convert the Microsoft Word files (with RGB) into duotone (in this case, all screen captures to greyscale, all RGB type to black only and all objects that were not black to "Spot Blue" - so you then had a two color PDF.
>
> Hope we are getting closer to answering your question !
>
> [Michael Jahn|http://michaelejahn.blogspot.com/2007/01/adobe-mars-adobe-is-working-on-way-to.html]


Hi Michael,
See this is the kind of info that impresses me about this forum. This is an excellent example of what PitStop is capable of doing downstream with PDF and offering a quick solution. Given the same situation, our first reaction in solving this problem would be trying to locate original files to work with, PDF for us will always last choice. We want to be able to control the quality of our work not just quick turnaround. We'll be asking question about the image quality of those image files, duotone with curves yields better tonal range than simply applying two colors to it.

My question is already answered, it's funny how all I wanted to know was, does PitStop remove crop marks permanently, if so, how easy or complicate to do so.

Thank you.
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

Hi there tech

(if that is your REAL name)

you wrote;

2) By "web", I meant internet/our online store... this whole PDF for our online store requires bookmarks for navigation... this isn't what troubles me. I'm already testing some demo acrobat bookmark plug-ins... none of which I like nor find it intuitive to use.

okay - got it - now your web store - you say the way they implement navigation 'requires' book marks ? Wow.

I will assume that (of course) the person AUTHORING (not the real writer, but the person creating the 'original' the original documents) could not create a well formed structured Tagged PDF because, well if they could you would have done that.

I feel your pain here. I would stop thinking that you are ever going to find an "intuitive" acrobat Bookmark tool. This is work - tedious work. Making Structure where there is none is well, ass backwards. This is like trying to turn a box of breakfast saussages back into a living breathing pig. This is what the medical and legal profession do not author documents without footnotes and tags - so the PDF files are structured.

Before my current Gig, I worked at ELAN GMK - we took scans of pages and added all the tagging (using OCR/ICR and loads of code) - ELAN Capture made searchable PDF files and added metadata - you indicated (click and drag) what the TOC was, then it created all the book marks and links - it even did the interlinking (figure 1 links to the image or graphic that was figure 1( - [http://www.elan-gmk.com/Products/Capture/|http://www.elan-gmk.com/Products/Capture/] - )

hope that helps !
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

> {quote:title=michaelejahn wrote:}{quote}
> Hi there tech
>
> (if that is your REAL name)
>
> you wrote;
>
> 2) By "web", I meant internet/our online store... this whole PDF for our online store requires bookmarks for navigation... this isn't what troubles me. I'm already testing some demo acrobat bookmark plug-ins... none of which I like nor find it intuitive to use.
>
> okay - got it - now your web store - you say the way they implement navigation 'requires' book marks ? Wow.
>
> I will assume that (of course) the person AUTHORING (not the real writer, but the person creating the 'original' the original documents) could not create a well formed structured Tagged PDF because, well if they could you would have done that.
>
> I feel your pain here. I would stop thinking that you are ever going to find an "intuitive" acrobat Bookmark tool. This is work - tedious work. Making Structure where there is none is well, ass backwards. This is like trying to turn a box of breakfast saussages back into a living breathing pig. This is what the medical and legal profession do not author documents without footnotes and tags - so the PDF files are structured.
>
> Before my current Gig, I worked at ELAN GMK - we took scans of pages and added all the tagging (using OCR/ICR and loads of code) - ELAN Capture made searchable PDF files and added metadata - you indicated (click and drag) what the TOC was, then it created all the book marks and links - it even did the interlinking (figure 1 links to the image or graphic that was figure 1( - [http://www.elan-gmk.com/Products/Capture/|http://www.elan-gmk.com/Products/Capture/] - )
>
> hope that helps !


I see, you been through this pain already! Yes, external press-ready PDFs we receive are not tagged/structure and this pretty much render any bookmark plug-in ineffective. Many of these plug-ins also relies on you knowing the font and exact type size to tag/bookmark accurately. Unless, I'm blind but I don't think Acrobat allows end user to highlight any text and identify font and size on the fly. Our in-house PDFs are easier to deal with.

What is the price on this ELAN Capture software?


Thanks.
Tech
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

hai,

i've had some problems with cropping in PDF as well.
what i do is crop to the desired size using the crop feature.
and then i just do a print to PDF in the file > print menu.
so that's how i did my cropping in acrobat.
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

if you then print to PDF after using the the crop tool - do you take the time to create a new paper size and then print to that size ? or in your workflow are you fortunate enough that your 'print to' size is some standard size ?
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

Tech said "
I'm not disagreeing with the functions and importance of PitStop. It's gig0's tone that bother me without fully understanding the situation. If you speak to publishers, you'll be hard to convince any of them in acquiring it. They see PitStop as prepress software, and that is not the business they are in. I deal with designer files everyday and PDFs created in-house won't need any editorial changes using PitStop. We rather update original layout files and generate new PDFs.

Not all publishers are the same. If you document the time you save using an 'tool' like pitstop then you can show this to publishers but if he/she doesn't give a hoot, then I feel for you. Sometimes we have to do our own 'homework' and be convincing by showing the facts. We can't just go in and say 'we need Pitstop"

just my 2 cents
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

Sure you can. The cost of spoilage in terms of labor, never mind materials, in a month more than pays for the modest price of PitStop.
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

let me give you another scenario (besides tech's crop mark problem) that we all here deal with on a regular basis in regards to PDF's:

the customer decides to change a color on an object or background at the last minute. You have 3 options:


1.) Reject the PDF. Go back to the design department or customer and ask for a newly generated PDF. OK, so now someone has to take time to explain to a manager or CSR why you need a new PDF. They now have to use their time to relay this information back to an art department or customer. If you're dealing with a broker, your customer now is stuck in the middle and also has to take the time to relay this information back to +their+ customer. Oh it gets worse.... not only that, the designer has to stop what their doing and regenerate a new PDF. If you're lucky, the same person who made the original file has recreated the PDF. Otherwise, you are also risking more time, money and embarrassment because of some tool who used different settings when generating the PDF.
You're workflow and press schedule is being held hostage on how soon you can get these newly revised files, which you have no idea how long it will take or if it's correct.

or...

2.) you can edit the file in an expensive object based post-rip editor (such as presstouch), which is slow, aren't universal with all RIP's, and don't guarantee you a newly generated PDF as your final output. Thats assuming you have this software....

or......

3.) make the color adjustment in less than a minute in PitStop and have color accurate PDF that you can send to your RIP or soft proof to your customer.

...and this is only one simple example. Not only that, there are many other technical considerations which PitStop can perform that alleviate ripping/processing issues with PDF's. I can go all day! Not only that, some of these functions can be processed on the fly, without operator intervention or be done globally thoughout the document with a few clicks. Trust me, Pitstop eventually pays for itself. Also, what David said is true, it's only as good as the skill of the person using it. In the hands of an unqualified operator, it's mostly useless.

If your job is to edit or make *press ready PDF's*, then you need PitStop.

Edited by: gig0 on Nov 26, 2007 8:35 PM
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

Gig0,

(if that is your REAL name)

well, of course, there is option 4. Which honestly is the same option used by the u s post office - if things are not 'addresses' properly, simply reject it.

if you can't grow up and learn how to follow the rules - your exchange gets rejected.

in you post, you assume the person exchanging has the responsibility to make things right. in a prepress or commecial print workflow, this often is the fact where you will not get the job or keep the customer because you rejected a file (and they take their file and go elsewhere)

but it is my guess here - in the 'publisher' environment - that is that this is not the case. If you have a PDF in one condition, and it is not in the condition the other party requires, well, then the other party can set up a portal - perhaps that portal has a preflight gadget (perhaps it is even PitStop server!) - and that portal may be set up to send a polite message to the sender that there are problems (maybe even send them a preflight report!) and then the sender must make changes and re-submit.

Or, if the 'condition' is known - and constantly in the same "improper" condition every time - one can create a worklfow (a either the sending or reciving end) where the condition is changed (hot folder, portal, whatever)

So, in the end, a file can be rejected because it is not in the 'required' condition, or a file can be 'automatically modified' and made to be in the proper print condition - and no one needs to do much more than decide where it makes the most business sense.

I have worked with publishers who accept folders full of 8 bit greyscale scans of paper documents as input.

They go into to a 'batch processing folder' where the files get converted into deskewed, descreened, despeckled and imposed "ready to print" PDF files - all 'headless" - no humans required.

http://www.elan-gmk.com/Products/Proofer/ELAN_BeforeAfter.pdf

It is always less about technology and more about business relationships.
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

Michael,

that was "option one" in my post.... reject the file. The file gets rejected and it goes back through the channels for *revision* therefore resulting in lost time and money.

This also goes well beyond an automated solution or preflight, which we're not even talking about. In my example, no automated workflow would red flag a last minute color change or fix. None. Hence, loss of time and money (not only on your end, but the customers end) can be avoided by a few simple keystrokes and mouse clicks. The customer can be upcharged for the last minute changes and now the company has made a profit! The customer avoided delays, you provided a service, everybody is happy!

I'm pretty sure most people here are familiar with automated workflows, but certain things still need manual tweeking such as bleeds, crossovers, type reflow (yes, it still happens in PDF's) and as techs original post indicates, resizing of documents to the crop or trim box. Those are just a few other examples. Customers are submitting more and more PDF files and just about every major RIP manufacturer are touting their new PDF workflow. The format is unavoidable now. That said, why wouldn't anyone make an investment in some type of PDF editor if you can recover costs, avoid delays and actually make a profit?
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

If type reflows in a PDF you've got big problems and shouldn't touch the PDF with a rented ten foot pole.

No one is claiming that automation will find all the problems. I've never made that claim and I don't think that Michael is either. But you can use automation to speed up the process by programmatically finding the common errors and performing mundane tasks where a human could otherwise be more productive. Dealing with the low hanging fruit if you will. Getting 50% of the preflight done by a machine to make the humans job easier and faster is a huge benefit and should never be over looked.

What is it Scrooge McDuck said? Work smarter, not harder!
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

> {quote:title=mattbeals wrote:}{quote}
> If type reflows in a PDF you've got big problems and shouldn't touch the PDF with a rented ten foot pole.


really? This is precisely why convert to outline is one of PitStop's best new features. Sadly, I won't go as far as saying it's foolproof (mostly because of the font foundry) but it works most of the time. I learned that the hard way once ;)

I understand what you're saying though, Matt. I just don't understand how the subject of automated preflight workflows relates to this topic or what's been said about these last minute changes. It's gone off to tangent land!
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

Gig-ho

If you do not understand why automated preflight workflows has anything to do with this thread, then you should go back and read the original post.

it went somethink like this (i do not see any wording here about "last minute changes, BTW)

+Hi All,+
+This question has come up on various times for us, I know and confirm cropping in Acrobat is not a permanent change. It is in fact more like masking out unwanted areas. That said, does Pitstop function the same? (we don't have Pitstop)+

+We need to supply web division with bookmarked PDF and cropped without trim marks. The issue is that we often received old/new press-ready PDFs that already has trim marks created, ideally, we like to remove those trim marks and not just masking it out.+


So, using an automated preflighting workflow system (for example, but hardly limited to Enfocus PitStop Server) one could automatically - by simply dragging and dropping a PDF, (as in, a set of PDF pages or multipage PDF) convert 'prepress PDF files (defined by the poster here as "PDF files that have trim marks, that might be hidden behind a cropbox setting) into something that anotheir group of people desire (which from reading here - is a PDF file that has been "timmed" - to the cropbox size - where the objects outside the crop boix are REMOVED and not just 'hidden' or 'masked'

So, readying that original post, I think it is quite appropriate to discuss what can be done to overcome at least one part of the the problem described by "Tech".

I then added that using other things besides PitStop, you can do things like add bookmarks automatically.

So, that being said - your other comment ;

+This also goes well beyond an automated solution or preflight, which we're not even talking about. In my example, no automated workflow would red flag a last minute color change or fix"+

Who cares about a "last minute color change or fix" then - read the Subject of this thread for crying out loud - the entire idea that I have somehow gone off on "tangent land' is laughable.

the LEAST one can do is re-read the subject line once and a while.
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

> {quote:title=michaelejahn wrote:}{quote}
> Gig-ho
>
> If you do not understand why automated preflight workflows has anything to do with this thread, then you should go back and read the original post.
>
> it went somethink like this (i do not see any wording here about "last minute changes, BTW)
>
> +Hi All,+
> +This question has come up on various times for us, I know and confirm cropping in Acrobat is not a permanent change. It is in fact more like masking out unwanted areas. That said, does Pitstop function the same? (we don't have Pitstop)+
>
> +We need to supply web division with bookmarked PDF and cropped without trim marks. The issue is that we often received old/new press-ready PDFs that already has trim marks created, ideally, we like to remove those trim marks and not just masking it out.+
>
>
> So, using an automated preflighting workflow system (for example, but hardly limited to Enfocus PitStop Server) one could automatically - by simply dragging and dropping a PDF, (as in, a set of PDF pages or multipage PDF) convert 'prepress PDF files (defined by the poster here as "PDF files that have trim marks, that might be hidden behind a cropbox setting) into something that anotheir group of people desire (which from reading here - is a PDF file that has been "timmed" - to the cropbox size - where the objects outside the crop boix are REMOVED and not just 'hidden' or 'masked'
>
> So, readying that original post, I think it is quite appropriate to discuss what can be done to overcome at least one part of the the problem described by "Tech".
>
> I then added that using other things besides PitStop, you can do things like add bookmarks automatically.
>
> So, that being said - your other comment ;
>
> +This also goes well beyond an automated solution or preflight, which we're not even talking about. In my example, no automated workflow would red flag a last minute color change or fix"+
>
> Who cares about a "last minute color change or fix" then - read the Subject of this thread for crying out loud - the entire idea that I have somehow gone off on "tangent land' is laughable.
>
> the LEAST one can do is re-read the subject line once and a while.


Michael,

so now you're going to move on to character attacks because of some points that have been made that have absolutely nothing to do with your marketing agenda here? How many links have you posted to your website? Nice priorities there, pal.

Here's what you're missing: Not all PDF's are created equal nor generated by InDesign. We can talk about perfect world scenarios until the cows come home but keep things in perspective. We're not talking theoretically here. Many legacy applications DO NOT retain crop box settings and is also compounded by the fact of what drivers are used in generating the PDF ( NOTE to the original topic: *OLD/NEW* PDF's are being supplied). What's going to happen when you receive a PDF thats off-center with all the bounding box, crop box and trim box information encompassing the media size and NOT the crop marks? I'll tell you: failure. This scenario happens more often than you marketing types admit. Believe that! But I understand it's an open door for sales people to say "YOU NEED THIS" when it only really affects only 5% of your work. It's overkill.

While I'm all for streamlining these mundane tasks and focusing on other things, there are other aspects that aren't quite ready for primetime, yet, and half the problem is marketing hyperbowl that relies on 'perfect world situations' rather than real world scenarios. Therin lies the problem.
 
Re: Cropping PDF in Acrobat or Pitstop

Michael Jahn is probably the *last* person you need to talk to about good & bad PDF's and the implications on workflows. He still is one of the perennial experts on PDF based workflows. Given the fact that he worked for Agfa on a product called "Apgoee"...

Believe me, if anyone around here understands anything about PDF, workflow and prepress in general it is Michael. Not that he needs any defending from me, but it's nice to know who you're talking with. And that works both ways.
 

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