Training

Re: Training

Don are we going to hear about you on the evening news in regards to a tall building and a high powered rifle?

;-)

Edited by: G_Town on Dec 14, 2007 8:55 AM
 
Re: Training

G,

No. I apologize for getting so upset and ranting. I don't want to be a part of the problem, but part of the solution. However, I'm tired of it all, and want to escape prepress. So what's been building up for years comes out. To think that someone can get paid $15 to start, and I've been in this industry as prepress since 95 and get paid $19.25 (after having been paid $23.06) is like hitting me below the belt. It hurts and also makes me mad. Oh well, even more reason to persist in my studies of my new career I've been planning to go to from here, and let this one die on the vine without me.

Don
 
Re: Training

Although it took years, I do finally get "good job" compliments. (Note: I learned you give respect to others until they show they don't deserve it, while it looks as if my boss was trained to not give respect until someone showed they deserved it, so two different ways of approaching it).

The one thing I do like about my job is that I'm a one man prepress room mostly, which means I do the jobs, and unless there's a problem, I rarely have to talk to the boss. In other words, I like being left alone and let me do my thing, and it works out for us both that way. Having said that, of course there are both positives and negatives from being cut-off like this (of which I'm mostly talked about the negatives so far).

Since I don't like selling myself or looking for a job, this is where I stay. I don't like change much (never really deal with it well, although it is a part of life).

Having said that, I would like you to send me the headhunter who rescued you. I got a resume I can send them. What's the worst that could happen, right?

Don
 
Re: Training

No problemo,

I'll dig it up and PM it to ya, best thing I ever did and believe me I seriously DON'T like change.
 
Re: Training

"G,

No. I apologize for getting so upset and ranting. I don't want to be a part of the problem, but part of the solution. However, I'm tired of it all, and want to escape prepress. So what's been building up for years comes out. To think that someone can get paid $15 to start, and I've been in this industry as prepress since 95 and get paid $19.25 (after having been paid $23.06) is like hitting me below the belt. It hurts and also makes me mad. Oh well, even more reason to persist in my studies of my new career I've been planning to go to from here, and let this one die on the vine without me."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry didnt mean to upset anyone.

I wasnt aware that was a good starting rate for Prepress... ( or should I say someone who has went to college and didnt learn Illustrator and PS and Quark in the basement on weekends)
I really believed my college and the professors when they said your going to start at 19-20$. full time... *ha*
Even if you look online at what Desktop Publishers make per hr / starting wage its on average 20$. ( I chose desktop publish. because apparently prepress doesnt exist )

I mean ..people can walk in off the street and feed the press ( theyve hired a few such ppl) and they make just under what I do.. thats what gets me steamed. I had to go to college and pay for it from my $8 an hr part time job and goddamnit I want some of that back :)

Most smaller businesses offer 8-10$ and usually u wont make any more then that. Alot of business card and letterhead printing.. nothing anyone who had even an mild hobby towards Graphics and Graphic programs couldnt manage.

Larger companies offer 12-22$ ( the gap being so large because, well....... why pay 22 when you can get away with 12.. Period)
(22 being my educated guess on what the Lead Hand makes)
The platemaker / ex film stripper also makes just under that .. as they told me that film strippers a) used to be in demand B) got paid well since u were bent over a light table all the time..and since they cant deduct his wage he now gets paid to be IMO. a quality component, making sure our work is spec on the ctp plate.

Again this is all Canadian... and my experience within 1 company.
Alot of Wage talk. I should drop the subject as its touchy to all.


C2C
 
Re: Training

C2C,

I'm not mad at you, I guess I'm just mad at my own situation. I went to college, got degree, went to work for journeyman at company that had been open for nearly 80 years, and thought I would retire there. Wage started in 95 at $9/hr (with my degree), moved up from that in 6.5 years to making $23.06 at the end of my journeyman (so obviously they thought I kicked butt, and gave me a recommendation letter when they closed the doors). So here I was with my journeyman completed and the company closed, I was out of work 3 months cause nobody was hiring (2002), so I had to take a job at $18 just to get a job in prepress. In the last 5 years, I've got two pay raises (up from $18 to $18.50, then up to $19.25). I have debt, but am able to survive and take care of myself and my wife. Not what I had planned. Reality sometime sucks.

Now if I would be willing to look for a job, and take a certain test (I'm sure I would fail, have before, so I don't take it), then I'm sure I could make better money. But I don't want to take this certain litmus test that many businesses have implemented, so that automatically makes me have to settle for a job at a certain type of place that doesn't make a person take this litmus test (because most of their employees would be gone if they did implement the test). Note: You'll see I'm being vague about the test. This is on purpose for a reason. Think long and hard and you'll probably know what test I'm talking about. I will say no more about it.

Like I've said before, I let my work do the talking. If a boss doesn't accept that, then I can't accept to work there. I believe my personal time is just that - personal.

Don
 
Re: Training

"Meanwhile, China's equivalent to the U.S. dollar grew 80% last year alone."

Sorry, should have read:
"Meanwhile, China's stock market returned 82% in 2007 alone."

Don
 
Re: Training

Just thinking... One way to be part of the solution might be to have a yearly open house. My neighbour runs a hand bindery from his home, and each year hosts the local Grade 9 who each print, cover and bind a small book. Another small press/publisher holds an open house every year (see http://www.gaspereau.com/wayzgoose.shtml) with amazing workshops and round-table discussions. These open-house/workshops provide the hands-on education and inspiration in a way nothing else can; everyone leaves the place a printer (not to mention a customer!). While your presses probably look more like locomotives coming into the station, abolishing the notion that the "power of the press" is something in one's own hands, maybe you could get a couple old working hand presses and binders for your shop. As a production worker myself, having entered the industry just at the advent of computerized typesetting, I still keep an old type drawer (Baskerville 9mm) next to my computer, just to remember what an en or em really is.

And speaking of old, another part of the solution might be the aging workforce itself. These could be the new knowledge workers, who work remotely, part-time, consulting and training the new workforce in interactive sessions globally and hands-on workshops locally. Not just print companies but all companies serving the print industry need people who understand the physical roots of the shop-floor processes even as they morph into the virtual. Just thinking...
 
Re: Training

Suzanne,

I am with you 100% on the Open House ides. I would love a chance to show interested people what goes into printing. i dont think too many people outside of our industry give it much thought, really. As i mentioned in earlier posts, i think a company that wants good people needs to reach out to the local schools and try to get them interested, instead of waiting to see what the wind blows up to your door when you drop an ad in the paper for help wanted.

cr
 
Re: Training

P-Rex,
Just to clarify, Prepress Training Solution does not offer videos. While training is online and there is narration, the learner actually clicks on files and menus in a software simulator... learn by doing.
Debbie
I have used this in the past as well, interactive pretty cool.

I stand corrected, but I still believe that the sources I mentioned can provide training that is just as useful. Give them a look.

P-Rex
 
Re: Training

Great thread

Here's MHO

I'm 20 & have worked in prepress for a year and a half now, i hold down this dept. as well as the digital print dept. in a small business and bring home about 30k a year before taxes, there's plenty of overtime (aka stress) but I have to say there are always great bonuses along the way for a job well done.

i went to college for graphic design and took up an internship at this company in prepress just to learn more about printing and it went from there.

As for future job potential, I can see myself making decent money only because I work for a small business and am able to learn so much more than an average prepress operator. I've been taught how to use bindery equipment & how to use the cutter, I also man the digital and wide format presses. I'm constantly learning about design/marketing/printing/post press/paper/mailing you name it.

So as far as prepress goes I think the job is starting to encompass more things than just working files out on a computer, if you're able to spread your knowledge base further you'll be able to offer more for what may be a dwindling industry.

I think digital press operators/pre press operator will be a more common job in the next few years.

The biggest killers are pessimistic co-workers, whether they're csr's or other prepress people. im new to the industry and have to say some days do genuinely suck but the worst is having to deal with bitter vets of the biz as it just breeds more of them
 
Re: Training

^ I have a friend who's in the same spot.
Went to college with him, he got a co-op in a smaller business and went from co-op to job.

He's into the whole gamut of Prepress and does alot more varied tasks then say I do at the co. I work for.
At times im almost envious of his knowledge in alot of things ive never even touched upon ( dont nec. need to working here)

Straight Days, Makes decent $ now...but he says he HATES it. * im just envious of the Days, rotating shifts.. enough said*

He says the stress is crazy, and when the boss goes on VAC hes in charge and everyone does nothing...
I think he tells me every other day its not worth it, i need out.. yet he stays.. 5 years now...

Prepress must have some sort of spell over its workers...

Hm,

So as far as prepress goes I think the job is starting to encompass more things than just working files out on a computer, if you're able to spread your knowledge base further you'll be able to offer more for what may be a dwindling industry


I agree. Kinda like banking and making $.


with that said,
back to archiving and purging.
 
Re: Training

I don't think it is all a lack of interest on the high school grads, it's the businesses themselves that are not encouraging the training or seeing the value of it. When I first entered into the world of Print I was encouraged to start my apprenticeship and they also supplied a wealth of training that no other print shop in our local was doing. Not only did that make us better printers it was also a fantastic marketing ploy that attracted business, since they could say there crews where certified and trained.

Now with that being said, I do agree the pay these days is lousy for the stress and pressures of the job. There is a boom in construction here and employers are scrambling to find employess because they can't match the dollar that anyone can get working construction. I feel you get what you pay for. You don't pay, you don't get skilled workers. Simple.

I have found grads fresh out of highschool don't have much or a work ethic or care, I wouldn't say all but most. Like others in this thread have said everything is so politically correct and watered down that the youth these days have had little thought about thier future and what it may hold if they don't get there sh@t together. It's kind of a scary thought but is it all that different then previuos generations? or is it just we're the older generation and we don't like what we are seeing in the younger? Probably not that different.

Just my two cents.
 
Re: Training

"Prepress must have some sort of spell over its workers..."

Yeah, it's called being in between a rock and a hard place. You see, I make too much to start over in another career (well, I'm kinda doing that anyways, but having to do it after my prepress work hours so I can keep my prepress job until I no longer need it), but not enough to pay my bills on a much lower wage (which I would get a lower wage if I start over in another career - I make a hell-of-a-pizza, but it just don't pay a living wage).

So yeah I hate it and have for years now (only getting to be more so), it's getting harder to even want to get out of bed in the morning, but I got to pay my bills (or at least only keep being in debt to a certain extent and not go further into debt), so I must stay until I can "Escape from Alcatraz"

Don
 
Re: Training

Don
I go back along way - to letterpress and have owned printing companies for nearly 30 years -

What is interesting is when letterpress was around good compositors always moved into admin and then management - the old comps were alway miserable so and so's.

This hasn't happended with pre press - I think mainly becuase of the high earnings of pre press operators ( including overtime) is usually a lot more than customer services , estimators etc

Pre Press operators are obviously reluctant to take a drop and we cant pay the higher wages as it would cause isues with those already in the job. But they also miss the oportunity for personal developement to become managers/ owners

Peter
<< so u know Dan Wilson as well>>>
 
Re: Training

Peter,

I never wanted to be a manager. I don't mind doing the dirty work, just never wanted to be the boss. That's the way I have always liked it. What gets to me nowadays is that over the last 5 years I've had to learn more and do more to earn less, have bosses, estimator/customer service, and customers (basically everybody else in the production chain I'm in) that don't understand ICC color management and don't want to, but want it to just work and think that it does or I should make it to, I have to decide what products I need (since I'm the only one who knows the least about digital/electronic prepress), then be told we can't afford it because we've already paid for a product for that purpose (rip that doesn't keep a PDF as a PDF), and have to be stuck with old technology that doesn't handle the new stuff as well, and I can't even use the updates to this rip that handles transparency because it would break my proofing.

Now believe it or not I can and have had to handle all that, but it sure would be nice to not have to. On top of all this, I get Dan Remaley from GATF (whom I respect) that never mentioned repurposing of incoming CMYK (just assuming it was SWOP, which I clearly understand why and we have talked about it), my old rip don't do repurposing well, before I started talking with others from overseas on these forums, I had never heard CMYK repurposing in prepress even mentioned in the U.S. (and really still don't much), but I'm being told I'm a whiny crybaby because I would like a clear path forward on this issue, and for the life of me I can't seem to get out of this rut I'm in. I swear I would love to say to hell with it all. I know that's a bad attitude. I don't like that I have it myself. Maybe it's time I just got off these forums and quit caring at all. Just do what I got to and pull a paycheck. It works for most others I see. Why not.

Don
 
Re: Training

"(since I'm the only one who knows the least about digital/electronic prepress)" should have read "(since I'm the only one here who knows the most or about anything at all about digital/electronic prepress)"

Although, after rethinking it, what the heck do I know anyways. You ask for recommendations and one person says up and another says down, another one says left and another one says right. If this industry is not confusing, I don't know what is.

Bye for now.

Don
 
Re: Training

Don I understand your situation. I am not really a producer - I see workflows. Pre Press to me is something that should have been automated by know.
But I live in a world of jobs wanted tomorrow others live in a mixed world and see income from making sure the the images are converted properly on all sorts of paper.

Also a lot of my jobs come from Print Mangement companies - who are responsible for what the agencies produce. so it is easier. I refuse to have PitStop as it will force me to correct a pdf and cock the job up.

as far as CMYK to CMYK conversion - I wast going to say give me a gun and i will go and shoot them - BUT we have used it once. We do alot of work for a wine company where the wine bottles are so dark the tack pulls the coating of the paper and we used it to reduce tack - it is also useful when printing images with the wrong profiles on uncoated - but is really over my dead body at the moment.

The hardest part is that I am also Chairmen of the British Printing Indiustries Technical Standards Committee and so people think I am a colour expert where as I have just read the Fogra manual and do what I am told.

Anyway its Friday - Time for a glass of wine and a blast on my guitar - take care

Peter
 
Re: Training

"Pre Press to me is something that should have been automated by know. "

LOL haven't you been reading this thread.
 
Re: Training

Oh dear u have found me out - I started the thread what seems like a lifetime ago and have tried to get out more:)

Peter

BUT

What I could do wiith is some software that takes native files , creates pdf's imposes them and proofs them. then I could fire all u miserable B's :)
 

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