Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

[disbellj]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

Henk,

GRACoL is recommending everyone that sets up using G7 should make their own ICC profiles. This means I need the right program and settings to get the best (closest Delta H?) mapping of out-of-gamut colors into the gamut of GRACoL2006_Coated1 (for coated) or FOGRA29 (for uncoated). I know you said that there are those taking a look at it, but since I'm ready to set up to G7 now and want the best I can get results now, any suggestions/recommendations from has been seen so far? I used to think ProfileMaker gave the best out-of-gamut mapping, but I don't really know and would appreciate any light shed on this from those that know.

Thank you,
Don

 

[gianotten]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

The Pantone Goe has a number of advantages. The basic 10 colors have the same thickness of ink layer. That's far better than PMS. The quality of these basic 10 colors is better and it's easier to mix from maximum 2 colors and black and clear transparant white.
The color gamut is smaller compared to PMS. 40% of the PMS colors can be reproduced in Goe colors.
The color gamut is (as I mentioned) smaller but is larger than the sRGB gamut. Concusion: there is a mismatch. Pantone gives every Goe color an sRGB value. However a bunch of colors (blue and green) cannot be reproduced in sRGB.
If one transforms the CIE-Lab values into CMYK process colors profiles have to catch all the colors inside the CMYK Process gamut. As absolute as possible. For the colors ouside the CMYK Process gamut a perceptual rendering can be used. However one gambles because these colors cannot produced (lack of gamut) so any solution seems to be wrong.
By creating special profiles one can try to reduce the differences in Hue and accept differences in Chroma and L.
It would be great if a profile generating program could calculate how the maximum CMYK Process gamut relates to the actual Goe color (CIE-lab values).
In spite of several promises I stil did not get the proper working myPantone software. As soon as I have this one, more info will be made available.
Henk

 

[disbellj]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

Henk,

If 40% of PMS colors can be reproduced in Goe colors (I would have thought that it would be much higher than that), and only about the same amount of PMS colors can be reproduced in print, does this tell us at all how many Goe colors can be reproduced in CMYK?

I can see a problem with the sRGB being smaller and causing mismatches. That's why I would much rather have Lab values to start with. But if going to web, sRGB is what is used there as the standard, so there's no much that can be done there unless the standard changes.

"If one transforms the CIE-Lab values into CMYK process colors profiles have to catch all the colors inside the CMYK Process gamut. As absolute as possible. For the colors ouside the CMYK Process gamut a perceptual rendering can be used. However one gambles because these colors cannot produced (lack of gamut) so any solution seems to be wrong."

Surely not going to be automated then, unless the programs somehow are set up to handle that. This would mean the in-gamut colors could be mapped using Relative Colorimetric Intent (not sure if pastels - colors with 20% or less of one or more process colors - would look right here though, but probably better than using Absolute Colorimetric), and then out-of-gamut colors using Perceptual. That's not even possible without workarounds now (read: very manual if having to be done this way).

"By creating special profiles one can try to reduce the differences in Hue and accept differences in Chroma and L."

This is what I'm after. More info on making profiles with Delta H in mind, or different method of conversion to yield better Delta H? When having to accept Chroma and L, it still looks the best as far as color match, correct? Maybe a little darker or lighter, maybe brighter or duller (not as saturated depending on paper), but the hue (color) looks closer than when doing conversion like we do now? (e.g. now we would use Adobe default Relative Colorimetric Intent, Black Point Compensation, with use of standards-based profile like GRACoL2006_Coated1v2, ISOcoatedv2, or ISOuncoated (although I wouldn't use that profile for conversion, just the FOGRA29 data to build the profile for conversion, and use source Lab values, which would be converted to CMYK upon output, using color management to get the CMYK values)

"It would be great if a profile generating program could calculate how the maximum CMYK Process gamut relates to the actual Goe color (CIE-lab values)." Yeah, if we could automatically get the closest match no matter what paper, then that would be great. Unfortunately, it's either going to have to be done by the vendors (Adobe) to be able to use different rendering intents on the fly depending on where the color in the gamut is at, or be done in the making of the profile to get the best mapping of out-of-gamut colors into the destination (coated or uncoated, etc.) colorspace.

"In spite of several promises I stil did not get the proper working myPantone software. As soon as I have this one, more info will be made available."

Well, since you're the only one really discussing this that I've heard of, please do let us know of your progress in figuring this out.

Thank you,
Don

 

[gianotten]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

As soon as I get the software, I will try to find out how they want to manage this.
I'am not an expert on profiling software but hope to get some more information from Jan-Peter Homann of Berlin.
He did a presentation on Pantone Goe in Heidelberg (PMA) and is expert on profiling and DVL technology.
Regards, Henk

 

[disbellj]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

Understood Henk. Please just let us know what you can when you can, do we can all try to get up-to-date on how we're supposed to handle this to get the best reproduction.

Thanks,
Don

 

[gianotten]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

In the meantime I can confirm that the Goe notation shows several mismatches due to the problem of sRGB versus Adobe RGB (aRGB).
We tried to simulate a well-known color Green. Lab values L = 50, a = -50,55 and b = -18,4. The C value = 53,8 and the hue = 200. Seems to match your green in Gracol 7 Paper type 1. We could reproduce this color in aRGB values of 0, 139 and 147. The C value is stil around 50 after transformation.
In sRGB the value would be -91,5 (out of gamut value!) for R and 142 and 150 for G and B.
If you look on the information on the gamut border of the sRGB value it seems that at the C level of 32,37 one reaches the sRGB gamut.
I will check these values on Bruce Lindbloom's calculator so I can prove that the Goe color gamut is far larger than the sRGB gamut.
That will prove that certain colors in the green and blue area cannot be correctly notated in regular sRGB values.
That's what Pantone wrote in the updated version of the Goe whitepaper.
It would be great if Pantone would inform the users of GoeGuide and GoeSystem that these notations in sRGB are not always right.
Not all users are fully aware of the differences between the sRGB color space and the Pantone Goe color space. Or even between sRGB and aRGB.
I used the GoeGuide since 4 weeks and appreciate the logical set up with the chromatical distribution of the colors.
It's a great fun to use it. The software is however not (yet) working properly. But I can measure the patches and play with the goodies.

 

[disbellj]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

Henk,

Thanks for the update. You've confirmed what we already knew about the sRGB colorspace being smaller than the Goe colorspace (since we already knew that we couldn't simulate pure solid cyan in sRGB like can be done in Adobe RGB 1998). Does the Goe guide give Lab values for every Goe color, so that maybe color management can be done using the actual appearance values to get the CMYK values? They haven't worked on getting CMYK values by using their program yet, have they?

Don

 

[gianotten]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

The GoeGuide shows 3 different types of information.
1.: The actual color notation; color 88-1-7 is Blue. The first numer 88 is the color, the second number 1 is the actual color without any darkening by adding black (2, 3, 4 and 5 in the second number are darker versions) and the third number 7 shows the highest chromacity. 7 is the highest value, 1 the lowest. 88-1-7 is a mixture of 86 % Medium Blue (Basic Color) ans 14% Dark Blue (another basic Goe color). As you perhaps know Goe has 10 basic colors included black. 88-1-1 Has some 7% Medium Blue, 1 % Dark Blue and 92% Clear (transparant white in older expression).
Color 88-2-1 is a dirtier version where some Neutral Black is added. The first color is 1, the last (Black) is 165. 294 different sets of 7 different colors are in this guide.
2.: As I already mentioned the mixture of the (one or two of the nine) basic color inks, the amount of Neutral Black and the amount of Clear. Minumum is 1 color, maximum is 2 basic color and Neutral Black and Clear. Maximum is 4 components.
3.: This information gives the RGB value. It's nowhere mentioned that these figures represent sRGB but in the Whitepaper on the pantone web site the specify that this value is based on sRGB.

There is (of course) no CIE-Lab information printed on this GoeGuide. That's their Unique Selling Point. To obtain this information one has to invest in a library and transform the information to any kind of RGB and/or CMYK. But an application software is needed to perform that task.
I assume that the libraries have coded CIE-Lab information. The coded information can be exported to applications where the coded information is decoded to the value in the application. That's the way Pantone makes their money.
One would expect that a standard color notation based on XML would be used in a JDF based system. It's 2007 and JDF is some years around!
As you know Gretag introduced such a neutral color coding system a few years ago. X-Rite now owns the rights for such a system.
But as long as the users don't insist on systems based on XML. JDF and other open standards we will have to pay the high price for the lack of standards. I think.
As soon as more info is available I will be able to study the details.
Henk

 

[disbellj]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

Henk,

Now with color management, soft-proofing, etc., why can't people in print just scan a printed piece with a spectro, or use previous PANTONE color's Lab values in Photoshop to get their CMYK values? Do we in print really even need PANTONE Goe? I mean, I can make a red and get the Lab values, and then match that in print, all without PANTONE Goe. Goe is IMO an attempt to remain relevant in an environment where there is no need for PANTONE or their printed materials any longer. Should anybody be able to claim rights to color?

Don

 

[disbellj]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

Also, I've used myPANTONE, and can say that it doesn't do me any good in what it does now for sure. In fact, when I look at software in that stage, it screams alpha (and people complain about iPhone 1.0 problems, go figure). No Lab, no CMYK. No good at this point to me. But who am I but a lowly prepress person.

Don

 

[gianotten]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

Of course, you can measure the color chips provided by your customer.
That's just one of the ways to transform a color to CMYK. However, for the communication on color between creative (less technical) people, it's important to use a color notation system. Creative guys, house style gurus, branding experts and others involved in color specifying and color reproduction need a system.
The national and international developed systems such as Munsell (owned by X-Rite too!) are only used by scientists and color experts.
The Pantone founders had the guts to develop their system and were able to convince the creative people in our industry and other industries (toys, furniture, automotive, telecom etc.) to use Pantone PMS.
They created their numbers, their guides and did a great marketing job. Others (such as HKS in Europe) tried to do the same but failed.
Pantone registered their name. So nobody is allowed to use their system without paying royalties. Fair enough.
Their Goe system is better than PMS. It offers more colors and is printed in a better quality (ink thickness). I like the system but I complained on the documentation and software. The major problem right now is the distribution of the basic 10 inks, the distribution of the mixed inks and the information on the progress. So designers get nice leaflets, buy GoeGuides, spec colors, expect printers to print these colors and at that moment the printer is forced to tell his customer the truth. In most cases, there is no ink available.
A lot of regional printing ink mixing stations don't have Goe inks. Not now. The information on the distribution of these inks is lacking.
And the information on the deal Adobe-Pantone is missing too.

 

[disbellj]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

Which is all the more reason printers should have a way to convert these colors to CMYK. But wait, so we have to buy the PANTONE Goe to get the Lab values so we can transform them with color management, because the program they have made to "convert" Goe colors to other color spaces doesn't do CMYK yet (still beta obviously though called version 1.0). Even then, it looks like getting the Lab colors in the PANTONE Goe "conversion" program (so that one has the actual color appearance before converting to another color space, hopefully CMYK will be available but I doubt it, since they won't put Lab values into the program, getting CMYK with that program would make no sense), is going to be a no-go too (pardon the pun). We must have Lab values, and it doesn't look like PANTONE will be putting those values into their freely downloadable software, so we must buy PANTONE Goe JUST to get the Lab values, if nothing else. Way to lock us in there PANTONE. Sell to designers and lock printers in because they want to satisfy their clients. Very smart.

Don

 

[gianotten]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

Don,
Today I got information (from Pantone) that the myPantone Pallette software for Goe is not yet available.
So decent testing is not yet possible.
Regarding the color patches and the facilities of a spectro: You can do that. Most designers however don't have the knowledge and experience to do what you can do.
That's why the color notation system Goe is a nice tool for the creators of printed material and web pages.
In my version of myPantone pallettes (beta) there is a fixed relation between RGB and HTML. This proves (I think) that the system is always based on sRGB and HTML

 

[disbellj]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

if i go to pantone.com and to myPANTONE (member area), I am able to download 1.0 of the myPANTONE Palette software. Don't see beta anywhere on it. It says 1.0. I launch it, it asks if my monitor is calibrated, I say yes (it trusts me), and then launches.

When launched, I see in the top right corner of the window a circle, a slash, and an x. If I select the circle, it opens preferences. The default is sRGB IEC 61966-2.1. You can also select Adobe RGB (1998).

Don

 

[gianotten]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

Don, that's funny.
My version (Windows) did not work. Pantone Europe confirmed some software problems and promised to send me the proper version.
However they confirmed by e-mail (several times) that the proper software for Windows was not yet available.
I wanted to review myPantone palettes.
If you use aRGB (Adobe RGB) is there a difference in the RGB read out?
Can you use the sliders in the aRGB default setting.
Is there always a sRGB read out with positive RGB values if a basic Goe color is selected?
Even the most chromatic blue and green?
If you use aRGB is there a difference in the HTML read out? (compared to sRGB)
These are some of the questions I wanted to know.
Your information is highly appreciated.
Regards, Henk
P.S.: I will download the

 

[gianotten]

Re: Pantone 2.0 and ISO print standards

Today, I did get information from Pantone that the modified software (MyPantonePalettes) will be released early February. The problem of the identical presentation of aRGB and sRGB will be solved, they said. HTML values will be based on sRGB (D65) and Adobe 1998 values will be transformed to sRGB and shown in RGB and HTML values. In the actual software Adobe RGB values are directly transformed to HTML. That's bad, I think. HTML is based on sRGB-D65. Nothing else.