Crestline issues are back - HELP!

[lantz_xvx]

Hey everyone,

I've run into a brick wall with the Crestlines on the first unit of my Ryobi 3302. As always, the second head runs beautifully. The first head, however, has never worked well and though I had it dialed in for a minute, I'm having a weird issue. I'm hoping someone here can help me figure it out.

As of yesterday, I noticed that my intermediate roller had no ink on it. I'm not sure what came out of adjustment or how, as I've been using both heads with sellable results. But when I run the press in neutral, the roller inks up. When I drop it into water, it inks up even better, but when I put it into ink, the ink slowly gets washed away until there's no ink on that roller. This causes anything be printed, obviously, to look terrible.

What I can't understand is 1) what adjustment actually needs to be made and 2) how it came that far out of adjustment. I keep trying to adjust the metering to intermediate pressure, but because that head is inked up with a dark blue right now, it's hard for me to see a stripe. I can't tell if there's too much or too little pressure. If I make the pressure too much, the whole plate just scums up. If I back it off to where the plate runs clean, the aforementioned problem occurs and the ink just disappears from the intermediate roller.

I made a slight adjustment in the intermediate to oscillator which seemed to help somewhat, but not enough. All of my form rollers, including the water form, have beautiful stripes.

Anyone have any idea what's happening?

Thanks,
- Lantz

 

[pdan]

What Crestline unit is this.
Crestlines for this machine are (were) available as 4 roll, 5 roll (Altra Series) and 6 roll configurations.

Press - 3302 M?

When you are ready to start setting stripes again, use Yellow, heavier than you would ink up to run with.

 

[lantz_xvx]

Hey pdan - it's the 5 roll series, and the press is technically an Itek 3985, but basically the same as the 3302M.

I definitely do use yellow when setting stripes, but I was already inked up with blue when the problem occurred and I was trying to resolve it so I could finish the job I was running. I'll ink up with yellow tomorrow and see where things are at. I'm more looking for advice on what pressure is off that the intermediate roller would have the ink washed off of it.

Thanks,
- Lantz

 

[pdan]

There should be very little difficulty swapping new rollers into these units, but I intsalled new rolls about 8 weeks ago and still don't have them perfect in one unit...I'm pondering the waay old ink rollers as the culprit.
Use yellow. It is much easier to see the stripe. Don't skimp on the amount used. Use plenty to set a very visual stripe.

I would set the rollers in this sequence. Ink up the form and Osc. via a heavy lay on the ink rolls with the inks and damps on the plate. (Ink up plate position)

You can lift all the rolls up at this point. Lift the dampener form (via the "night latch" handle - rotate it with your finger and verify the form to osc. stripe. (All Book specs are 4mm 5/32 in. except meter to pan - 5mm 3/16 in.)

Form to osc stripe is set with the a flat head screwdriver thru the hole in the cover, above the form to plate knob. Clockwise to increase.

Idle press with damps down, hit the emergency stop to stop with the form down on the plate. Inch the press to check that stripe. That pressure set via the knobs. Counterclock wise to increase. (Optionally, idle the press with damps down, lift lever to stop machine normally. Drop forms on plate, raise form, inch and check stripe.)

Now the roller in question. The Intermediate to Oscillator pressure is set via the 1/8in allen stand-off screw/stud (retained with the 7/16 inch lock nut).
Dampener needs to be in dampening posiiton. The lift-off stud allows/affects the downward pressure of the Intermediate to the Oscillator. (With locknut loosened...) Clockwise turn of the allenhead stud raises the roller - lessenes the stripe. (I have been known to remove the meter roller, run the machine at 3000 iph, lift the roller until I see the roller "flash" indicating just touching, than increase pressure slightly for minimal stripe.

All adjustments for the Intermediate to Osc. need to be made with the dampeners down on the plate. If the Meter roll is installed, you will have to backroll to get the stripe.

Dumb important question that needs to be asked - Are the springs which pull the Crestline to the main body installed; both sides of the unit?

Metering to Intermediate pressure - set via that small a$$ allen screw (retained by that difficult to loosen without a really small wrench) locknut. Meter to Intermediate pressure sould be 3.5mm Clockwise to increase.
Note - if you replace that roller, there are springs within the channel it sits into which provide back-pressure. Verify they were not overlooked upon re-install.

Final - Meter roll to Pan roll. The adjustment knobs. I find that per factory design, too much water is delivered over 7500~8000iph+ speeds and tend to set allowing me to really tighten them down when necessary.

 

[lantz_xvx]

Thanks for the really in-depth response, pdan, it was really helpful.

I've made some adjustments using your instructions and the factory instructions. I've even inked up both units with yellow to see what's different; the second head runs so well, I figured I could at least copy those settings, as one last desperate measure. One thing I'm noticing is that, in order to see the stripe on the metering roller when adjusting metering to intermediate, you have to stop the press, engage the water form, and jog the press backward to see the stripe. That works fine on the second unit, but when I do that on the first unit, I can't get those rollers to move. What could be the problem? Prior to inking up, I did the "pull test" with a sheet of paper and got the first head matching the second head, but if those rollers aren't moving, it must mean that there's not enough pressure between the metering and intermediate. But if I increase that pressure, it seems like the stripe will be much larger than it should be.

It should also be noted that the problem head cleans up much slower and not as well as the second head.

I have no idea about the springs that attach the Crestline to the main body, I bought this press used from the slumlord equivalent of an equipment dealer, so I didn't install it myself.

Any other ideas?

Thanks,
- Lantz

 

[pdan]

"Pull Test" - "Prior to inking up"... are you referring to the old technique of pulling narrow strips of paper through the rollers? That is pretty rudimentary.

Yes, a back-roll with the damp form down is required for some stripe inspections. I'm worried about your not seeing the springs. To remove the Crestline from the press there are blocks on each side of the machine retained by two allen screws each. 1 inch inwards (towards the main roller unit) on both sides of the machine, there should be a spring. These springs provide positive pressure of the (removable) Crestline unit to the rollers which do not remove with the unit.
Lift and drop, lift and drop the Crestline/dampeners. Note the unit raises and lowers. The action of lowering needs to be reinforced/aided by sufficient spring pressure. Without these springs, proper (consistent) pressure cannot be attained. The unit will effectively bounce during operation. Intermediate to Oscillator pressure will be minimal at best and inconsistent.

The springs (from memory) are about 1.25in in length, attached to posts. If your springs are missing, purchase equivalents with heavy tension. They are somewhat difficult to remove/install without a proper spring plier tool. If you cannot stretch them with your hands, they are the correct tension.

 

[smalloffsetpressexperts]

"Pull Test" - "Prior to inking up"... are you referring to the old technique of pulling narrow strips of paper through the rollers? That is pretty rudimentary.

Yes, a back-roll with the damp form down is required for some stripe inspections. I'm worried about your not seeing the springs. To remove the Crestline from the press there are blocks on each side of the machine retained by two allen screws each. 1 inch inwards (towards the main roller unit) on both sides of the machine, there should be a spring. These springs provide positive pressure of the (removable) Crestline unit to the rollers which do not remove with the unit.
Lift and drop, lift and drop the Crestline/dampeners. Note the unit raises and lowers. The action of lowering needs to be reinforced/aided by sufficient spring pressure. Without these springs, proper (consistent) pressure cannot be attained. The unit will effectively bounce during operation. Intermediate to Oscillator pressure will be minimal at best and inconsistent.

The springs (from memory) are about 1.25in in length, attached to posts. If your springs are missing, purchase equivalents with heavy tension. They are somewhat difficult to remove/install without a proper spring plier tool. If you cannot stretch them with your hands, they are the correct tension.

PDan,
I am an expert on the 3302 and Accel Products such as the Ultra etc. Your instructions were really good on stripping etc. Do it yourselfers overlook many factors in the install of new rollers.
Perhaps he said call in a trained tech to fix the issue. I see so many people spend hundreds of dollars on rollers and yet they bath them in the cheapest ink, fountain solution and solvent they can buy. Than they complain my Crestline rollers only last 6 months and now I have problems again.
I just enjoy the threads from do it selfer’s trying to save a buck and get free help.
I applaud your efforts for helping this printer P’Dan

 

[lantz_xvx]

Pdan,

My co-worker looked over the press today (my 9 month old is a little sick, so I stayed home) and from his description, the springs you refer to seem to be in the press. I'll take another in-depth look tomorrow just to be sure, but it would appear that the problem is not missing springs.

At this point, I really will probably have to call my service tech because the press needs to be running, and every day it's down causes more problems. But I will say that I really appreciate the help I get here, in this forum and in others. I help others, too, when I can. I think the sharing of information and knowledge is crucial, especially among tradespeople.

Happy holidays, all.

- Lantz