Please help settle a disagreement

[PricelineNegotiator]

You may not have to be a woman to be a gynecologist, but it is advisable that you know the ins and outs (no pun intended) of a vagina.
How you get that knowledge can come from many sources. You may not need your own vagina to learn how one works, but it is advisable that you at least spend a little time studying a few. The problem with a lot of the info on the internet is that you find many keyboard commandos thinking that google is their friend, without knowing the source of the google info, or how to apply the info to a particular situation. If your pressroom is staffed with competent employees, then I would suggest that you take them at their word. If you lack any competent pressroom workers, then I suggest you find some. This will allow you to focus on your own job in the company, and in the process perhaps not piss people off. It still baffles me that some companies will hire less that fully experienced pressroom personell with the thought of saving a few bucks, in the cost center that is usually the highest in the company. At the very least there should be a fully competent pressroom supervisor that can solve these issues based on experience actually DOING the job as opossed to reading about it.

Inb4 someone reports your post for mentioning vaginas.

Being a keyboard commando is so old school, I prefer the term armchair general.

 

[turbotom1052]

Inb4 someone reports your post for mentioning vaginas.

Being a keyboard commando is so old school, I prefer the term armchair general.

what can I tell ya Priceline. Im old school. I often think that a return to old school values would correct some of the problems in todays society.

 

[cementary]

what can I tell ya Priceline. Im old school. I often think that a return to old school values would correct some of the problems in todays society.

Do you mean:
- printing without measuring?
- using uncompressible blankets?
- inks with lead?
- CtF and manual imposition?

smth else?

 

[Alith7]

Using Kodak Sonora XP, on press develope/cleared.
The same plates will produce excellent dot after problem is fixed.
It is a press problem, operational, not mechanical.

As a prepress manager who FREQUENTLY has to fight the same battles, I have GREAT sympathy for your struggle!
However, I actually used to run a 2-color press, so that gives me a bit of an edge, but I still have to fight with pressmen who think I don't know what i'm talking about.

given your pictures and description, and similar problems that I have run into with our pressmen here are my two guesses:

1. Since you're developing on press, (we do too), one option is either running water rollers too long, or not long enough before applying ink rollers. This has been an on going battle in our shop. We even had the techs from the plate company come in, and when they stood and watched the pressmen set up, and made sure that they followed proper procedures, the plates ran beautifully every time.

or

2. Dirty water / haven't cleaned out the tanks in a while. Another problem I run into a lot.

actually, I have a third idea. Calcium build up on the rollers. As my pressmen recently learned, when you run a lot of low-grade board stocks, the calcium build up on the rollers can get really bad and they need to pay attention and make sure they are cleaning for that regularly.

so there's my 3 cents worth.

 

[arossetti]

1. Since you're developing on press, (we do too), one option is either running water rollers too long, or not long enough before applying ink rollers. This has been an on going battle in our shop. We even had the techs from the plate company come in, and when they stood and watched the pressmen set up, and made sure that they followed proper procedures, the plates ran beautifully every time.
.

It is my understanding that it is the actual ink that processes the plates, I saw a pressman run water over a Fuji Ecomaxx for 20minutes with no result. He would then take the plates of the press and manually scrub the plate....

 

[Alith7]

It is my understanding that it is the actual ink that processes the plates, I saw a pressman run water over a Fuji Ecomaxx for 20minutes with no result. He would then take the plates of the press and manually scrub the plate....

We run Ecomaxx T plates, and as the Fuji tech demonstrated, it can make a big difference if you cycle the water too long, or not long enough. My understanding is that the water "softens" the emulsion on the plate and then it sticks to ink and gets pulled off on the first few sheets. We went through a huge ordeal with one pressmen who kept insisting the plates were garbage, and that's why the tech was in and did all this to prove that the plates were fine as long as you followed the recommended inking procedures. Which the pressmen grudgingly agreed made things much better.

 

[turbotom1052]

Do you mean:
- printing without measuring?
- using uncompressible blankets?
- inks with lead?
- CtF and manual imposition?

smth else?

I think I said exactly what I meant cementary. I was referring to old school values, but as long as we are on the subject I will address some of your questions with apologies going out to O.P. for a bit of thread hijacking.
The ability to "print without measuring" is actually an old school practice that under certain circumstances still has merits. Imagine for a second what happens when the hand held densitometer, or worse yet the closed loop inking software, connected to your multi million dollar press goes down.
Ive see modern press operators immediately fall into panic mode when faced with prospect of having to use their brains, and eyes to get and maintain color on a job. I intentionally used the word press operators as opposed to PRESSMAN to illustrate how, had the old school methods been passed on this technology failure would not have been such a devastating blow.
Believe it or not there still is an application for non compressible blankets. I wouldn't recommend equipping all your units with them, all the time but there does come certain times when its nice to have a few on the shelf. Ill let you figure out when them times may be appropriate.
You got me on the unleaded inks though, and ill even concede to the manual film imposition, although at times it can come in handy to have an old school vacuum frame handy if you can afford to tie up the space.

 

[CClyde]

Thanks for all the posts.
I 've been away and not getting any updates recently.

The problem is, as a few have mentioned, over-emulsification, or water logged ink.

The ink begins to show microscopic drops of water, then soon after that the water begins to carry microscopic drops of ink that show in the non-image areas of the sheet.

The problem I'm having is the operator only sees the problem when it's too late.
They think the (ink-in-water) they see as slight toning on the sheet, is a plate scumming problem, so they increase the water trying to clear the plate. This just makes the problem worse.

 

[Alith7]

I'll have to remember that, I figured water problems, with the way the dot looked "watery" on the edges and not crisp or spattered.
Never thought of the problem that if you start with overwatering, and continue to add more, that the ink gets sucked into the water and now you have ink spatter coming FROM the water itself.

Thanks for the brain teaser.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello CClyde, Alith and fellow Lithographers,

Re- Correct Ink/ Water Balance ......... A Visual Guide.


I repeat this TIP yet again !!!! ....... regarding correct ink/water balance.

Look at the leading edge(grip) at the plate bend, you should see a Thin Scum Line 1 or 2 mm wide the width of the plate,

NO scum line - too much water, Scum Line 2mm + = Plate running too dry.

IMHO most of your on Press Problems are because you are using DoP Plates !

Regards, Alois

 

[cementary]

No Title

Hello CClyde, Alith and fellow Lithographers,
IMHO most of your on Press Problems are because you are using DoP Plates !

Sonora plates have nothing to do with this particular problems. We've been running sonora plates too – we do not see such problems.
As arosetti mentioned – ink blanket and paper develops sonora. Not fountain.

Mr. Cclyde, Kodak recommends to lower pre-dump as low as possible. Do your operators follow this recommendation?
And maybe your press operators should consider this:

The system was first used just to measure how the printer does set up the water manually. The example in figure 11 shows that the printer did use too much water at the start of the production. Printers do this very often, because they fear that by speeding up the press there could occur scumming, which leads to bad printing quality. The high water content makes the solid density degreasing. Since it is difficult for the printer to know how to correct for this problem, very often more ink is fed into the system, what leads to emulsification. The right measure would have been to reduce the water in-feed.

and one more thing – as far as i remember you're using hosman-steinberg/huber inks. If so – that's where your problem - overemulsification - arises

 

[cementary]

I think I said exactly what I meant cementary. I was referring to old school values, but as long as we are on the subject I will address some of your questions with apologies going out to O.P. for a bit of thread hijacking.
The ability to "print without measuring" is actually an old school practice that under certain circumstances still has merits. Imagine for a second what happens when the hand held densitometer, or worse yet the closed loop inking software, connected to your multi million dollar press goes down.
Ive see modern press operators immediately fall into panic mode when faced with prospect of having to use their brains, and eyes to get and maintain color on a job. I intentionally used the word press operators as opposed to PRESSMAN to illustrate how, had the old school methods been passed on this technology failure would not have been such a devastating blow.
Believe it or not there still is an application for non compressible blankets. I wouldn't recommend equipping all your units with them, all the time but there does come certain times when its nice to have a few on the shelf. Ill let you figure out when them times may be appropriate.
You got me on the unleaded inks though, and ill even concede to the manual film imposition, although at times it can come in handy to have an old school vacuum frame handy if you can afford to tie up the space.

Good point. Definitely somewhere there still old school way is preferred. No doubt.
But i just can't leave this without answer, no offends:
1. Our modern operators don't fall into panic – they just stop the press and call for maintenance. Simple as that
2. Somewhere there can be some work for non compressible blanket for sure. But for 7 years in commercial we haven't find that work.
3. ...
4. Old school vacuum frame – we have one, and use in everyday production, but not for the platemaking. You've catched with this one )))

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello cementary,

The "Plates" have a great deal to do with this problem, It's obvious to me that you have

a limited knowledge of the ---- "Chemistry of Lithography "


Regards, Alois

 

[turbotom1052]

Good point. Definitely somewhere there still old school way is preferred. No doubt.
But i just can't leave this without answer, no offends:
1. Our modern operators don't fall into panic – they just stop the press and call for maintenance. Simple as that
2. Somewhere there can be some work for non compressible blanket for sure. But for 7 years in commercial we haven't find that work.
3. ...
4. Old school vacuum frame – we have one, and use in everyday production, but not for the platemaking. You've catched with this one )))

The call for maintenance that you mention translates into press downtime. I think that we all can agree that a running press is the best press. I would think that it would be preferable if your closed loop inking were to take a dump, just as you were putting on a rush job. that your press crews could come up to color and run the job without all the techno wizardry. Don't get me wrong... I think technology is a great thing and am well versed in using it, but wouldn't it be nice to have a little old school hard knocks experience available to mix with all the tech.?
As for your never needing to reach for a non compressible blanket Ill say this.... Perhaps your reluctance to reach into an old school toolbox has limited your skills a bit. Ive worked in more than one shop where in order to produce museum quality images you used whatever means necessary to get the job done. Perhaps in your world you've never been held to that standard. Thats not to diminish what you do. Even a hang um and bang um type of shop should share a common goal, and thats to make money. If you can do the down and dirty stuff and still turn a profit then all the power to ya.

 

[cementary]

The call for maintenance that you mention translates into press downtime. I think that we all can agree that a running press is the best press. I would think that it would be preferable if your closed loop inking were to take a dump, just as you were putting on a rush job. that your press crews could come up to color and run the job without all the techno wizardry. Don't get me wrong... I think technology is a great thing and am well versed in using it, but wouldn't it be nice to have a little old school hard knocks experience available to mix with all the tech.?
As for your never needing to reach for a non compressible blanket Ill say this.... Perhaps your reluctance to reach into an old school toolbox has limited your skills a bit. Ive worked in more than one shop where in order to produce museum quality images you used whatever means necessary to get the job done. Perhaps in your world you've never been held to that standard. Thats not to diminish what you do. Even a hang um and bang um type of shop should share a common goal, and thats to make money. If you can do the down and dirty stuff and still turn a profit then all the power to ya.

Experience is good can't argue that.
"Museum quality" is definitely a new standard to me - mostly i'be been wondering around iso. I'll remember that one need non compressible blanket for that, thanks a lot.
From my experience "whatever means necessary" equel lack of tech skills. Which turns printing to some state of the craft. I have seen pressmen who didn't want to adopt new tech 'cause they were afraid that nobody needs their super-duper knowledge anymore. Sometimes this led to sabotage.
Don't get me wrong on that.
​​​​​

 

[cementary]

Hello cementary,

The "Plates" have a great deal to do with this problem, It's obvious to me that you have

a limited knowledge of the ---- "Chemistry of Lithography "

Regards, Alois

OK. Could you please share your thoughts on the Sonora plates deal with this particular problem?
or my limited knowledge doesn't allow you to?

 

[RJ Litho]

One thing I have notice being a Sonora plate user on two Heidelberg 40'' and one 73" Roland uv and conventional inks the plates will go blind and stop accepting ink if they are overdamped at the start of a run or excessive water during the run .Once the operator masters how to run this plate it is a very good plate .It takes a little trial and error at the start .

RJ

 

[cementary]

One thing I have notice being a Sonora plate user on two Heidelberg 40'' and one 73" Roland uv and conventional inks the plates will go blind and stop accepting ink if they are overdamped at the start of a run or excessive water during the run .Once the operator masters how to run this plate it is a very good plate .It takes a little trial and error at the start .

RJ

That is also true for most of the plates. Especially with uv. Well maybe except Electra xd
how many prints you're able to run with uv on Sonora? Our colleges claims 7000 most

 

[turbotom1052]

Experience is good can't argue that.
"Museum quality" is definitely a new standard to me - mostly i'be been wondering around iso. I'll remember that one need non compressible blanket for that, thanks a lot.
From my experience "whatever means necessary" equel lack of tech skills. Which turns printing to some state of the craft. I have seen pressmen who didn't want to adopt new tech 'cause they were afraid that nobody needs their super-duper knowledge anymore. Sometimes this led to sabotage.
Don't get me wrong on that.
​​​​​

Couldn't help but to notice ,after looking at your profile, that your a pre press guy. Have you ever had opportunity to actually RUN a multicolor offset press, or are you just throwing around terminologies you've heard at the water cooler? And when I say run, I refer to working the biznez end of the machine not the feeder. After you've done that for a decade or three then perhaps you'd be in a position to question the guys in your plant that are actually doing it. Do you even know what kind of blankets the guys are using?

 

[CClyde]

It is natural and understandible that press operators should assume someone without hands-on press experience does not know enough to solve press issues. That is a logical and safe assumption.

The other side of that coin is… this press operator does not have, nor are they willing to consider the large amount of consistent, reproduceable, microscopic evidence necessisary to diagnose the problem.
When I mentioned the microscope evidence that shows what the operator is not seeing, their response was "nobody is going to use a microscope to look at the finished book!!"
A true, but irrelavent answer.

Here's our experience and advice from Kodak:

Sonora XP plates are cleared on press - about 1-2 minutes fountain solution before ink/impression.
Too much pre-soak (5min+) can break down the emulsion and destroy the plate.
Any ink on the plate before propper clearing, will not come off without wiping it with cleaner solution - not a good thing when in or near image area.