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  • #31
    Originally posted by arossetti View Post
    If a Delta Airlines didn't manage their utilization rate as closely as they do how long do you think they would be in business? Minutes on the ground cost them thousands of dollars, but should they not consider that a cost?
    You are correct, Delta does manage their utilization rate closely. They also outsource some of their flights to other carriers in their alliance. You can book a flight from ATL to Paris through Delta but it is operated by Air France. Im sure Delta has a play sitting around they could use for the flight, but it is easier for them to outsource and make money that way. Same thing we all do in the printing business. Sure, I could throw these jobs on our digital press and double my cost for it vs outsourcing to someone who prints its offset, but why do that? You said it helps the bottom line. I can tell you and extra 40k in profit a year helps the bottom line.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by AP90 View Post

      You are correct, Delta does manage their utilization rate closely. They also outsource some of their flights to other carriers in their alliance. You can book a flight from ATL to Paris through Delta but it is operated by Air France. Im sure Delta has a play sitting around they could use for the flight, but it is easier for them to outsource and make money that way. Same thing we all do in the printing business. Sure, I could throw these jobs on our digital press and double my cost for it vs outsourcing to someone who prints its offset, but why do that? You said it helps the bottom line. I can tell you and extra 40k in profit a year helps the bottom line.
      You are referencing co-share routes, and we are reaching the limitations of where this analogy would work. Net profit after all expenses is what I'm interested in, part of that 40k needs to go to building, admin, marketing, utilities, insurance, and any other non-revenue generating departments. Until you know how much of that 40k contributes to those items you do not know your net profit, just gross.

      My point in all of this is you need to know your net profit for jobs going out and being produced in. Otherwise you are comparing net/gross; apples/oranges.

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      • #33
        The calculation of offset costs is complicated since it depends on many factors.
        To get an idea, Heidelberg sells cheaper presses if you commit to buy them consumables. Look at the link, they sell the cost of the sheet at £ 0.018 per sheet for an annual consumption of 12 million impressions.
        At this cost you have to add the amortization of the machine, electricity, labor ... although you have a discount of 30% on the price of the machine.

        In our small print shop, we work in 40 "our machine has free time and we still subcontract some offset work ... The reason? Other printing presses offer us printed sheets cheaper than we can buy special papers. that they buy directly from a manufacturer and we from an intermediary, the price of paper will not be the same to you as to the one who buys hundreds of tons a year.

        One option may be to buy the post-press handling equipment and do the work. The machinery is cheaper and you will find more and better offers if you only ask for printed sheets. This is how we started.

        https://www.printweek.com/print-week...s-model-for-uk

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        • #34
          There you have it. Heidelberg CS 92 for 680K (plus CTP system cost) and .025 per 24x36. With 8 signatures up you only need 9 runs. With a total of 31500 impressions per job your approx imp cost would be $800. I guess Heidelberg is throwing in ink too? But running three jobs a month only puts the press at 10% utilization per impression contract. I really like the DI concept. Looks like Presstek is back in the market trying to make change the bad taste? : http://www.presstek.com/mydi-training.htm

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          • #35
            Originally posted by _socket View Post
            There you have it. Heidelberg CS 92 for 680K (plus CTP system cost) and .025 per 24x36. With 8 signatures up you only need 9 runs. With a total of 31500 impressions per job your approx imp cost would be $800. I guess Heidelberg is throwing in ink too? But running three jobs a month only puts the press at 10% utilization per impression contract. I really like the DI concept. Looks like Presstek is back in the market trying to make change the bad taste? : http://www.presstek.com/mydi-training.htm
            Hell he should get 9 printers then he can run them all at once and the cost is still only $800.

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            • #36
              Many good points on here about Jumping in to the Offset World if you are currently only Digital. The cost would be "extreme" to say the least to jump in to Large sheet offset + Pre-press + Bindery. I believe you are 100% correct that the 3500 books you are referencing is not a Digital Job (to be cost effective) and that offset is the way to go....wouldn't really matter if you were paying 3 cent clicks or 6 cent clicks, the math just just isn't there. Personally I would say in your current situation that outsourcing has all the benefits and and none of the risk. We have both digital and offset and have seen a dramatic decrease over the past 5 years in Offset press production and a major increase in the digital realm. Just my opinion but it sounds like you are just fine right where your at.

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              • #37
                Ahhh, another opportunity to bash HP, someone said you could run this job on indigo 12000, let’s do the math:

                72 pages = 9 sigs
                3500 sheets per sig and 2 sides 3500x9x2=63,000 impressions
                63000 x .09 per = $5670 check to HP

                screw sunk cost, at 1.3 million press payment you are on the hook for $20,000 a month lease payment, so please someone explain to me how this is a “digital job” debate, even at 750 quantity I am still running this job offset any day of the week

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                • #38
                  Alright guys, so we've established that its not worth diving into with a new press, prepress, bindery and all that good stuff. Yes, I understand that a new Heidelberg and new muller martini will set me back $1 million. Lets be logical though. All I hear from offset guys is these things are tanks, they run forever, etc. So lets be realistic and say I pick up a used 4 color press. Im guessing to make it economical id need a 29" press correct? What I don't understand is why a lot of presses out there are only 14x20 or there abouts. Seems like it would take forever to do any type of magazine printing over say 16-20 pages. Maybe Im wrong though. I don't know offset stuff. But in all honesty, isn't there enough used equipment out there that if I save up, pay cash for, and take part of my profits from my outsourced offset jobs to pay for a pressman that I could get into offset. Its not that I just want to produce my own stuff, it just gives me the ability to bring more offset jobs into our company. I mean its hard to go out and pull clients from people when im having to pay what they end up paying for an offset job. I know there are ways of doing it, but I sell to a lot of print buyers.

                  So, is there any way it is economical to run say a GTO 52 or a DI, a duplo 3 tower system, and produce 3500 magazines that are 68 pages?

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                  • #39
                    A 52 will only give you the ability to print 4 Page Sigs so on the specs you stated earlier you would be looking at 144 Plates which would be quite expensive if you were going head to head against a 29 or a 40. You can definitely find very inexpensive Used offset equipment and the market seems to be flooded with it. A good place to watch is Thomas Auctions.... I have seen some amazing deals on there for used equipment. I believe I saw a 2000/2002 ish 5 color komori 29 inch sell for around 70K a few month back. I have seen used Darts for as little as 800 bucks and Big Stahl Folders with Right angle attachments are a dime a dozen on that site. If you are trying to build your business up in to the offset world, you have a market for it in your area and you do it the right way without taking massive "new equipment loans" I don't think it is the worst idea in the world.
                    I think the only person that can make that decision for you and your company is you. You know your market and your needs and what it might take to get to the next level to build your business. Opinions are just that.....opinions!

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by AP90 View Post
                      Alright guys, so we've established that its not worth diving into with a new press, prepress, bindery and all that good stuff. Yes, I understand that a new Heidelberg and new muller martini will set me back $1 million. Lets be logical though. All I hear from offset guys is these things are tanks, they run forever, etc. So lets be realistic and say I pick up a used 4 color press. Im guessing to make it economical id need a 29" press correct? What I don't understand is why a lot of presses out there are only 14x20 or there abouts. Seems like it would take forever to do any type of magazine printing over say 16-20 pages. Maybe Im wrong though. I don't know offset stuff. But in all honesty, isn't there enough used equipment out there that if I save up, pay cash for, and take part of my profits from my outsourced offset jobs to pay for a pressman that I could get into offset. Its not that I just want to produce my own stuff, it just gives me the ability to bring more offset jobs into our company. I mean its hard to go out and pull clients from people when im having to pay what they end up paying for an offset job. I know there are ways of doing it, but I sell to a lot of print buyers.

                      So, is there any way it is economical to run say a GTO 52 or a DI, a duplo 3 tower system, and produce 3500 magazines that are 68 pages?
                      AP . . . while its true that some of the presses out there are built like tanks some are not - and you get what you pay for . . . more important than buying the equipment is getting the experience to use it . . . press work is one thing, bindery another . . you could probably get a handle on the CTP issues pretty quick, IMHO you need to get somebody that is well versed in the industry and has been for years because you are talking about machines that are not state of the art "green button" machines. My "newest" presses are of a vintage 1978 and being Heidelbergs and having been properly maintained they preform wonderfully, but it's our pressman that makes them sing. The last time we bought a press we flew our pressman to the location and had him check the machine out and make sure it would do what we wanted, I didn't even go because my current knowledge on that subject is woefully short, I haven't run a press for 20 years now . . . I know what they do very well but can't make them do it anymore.

                      Get yourself an expert and take his advice! Oh and one more thing, I remember telling my brother that we don't need to worry about floor space for the press . . . its where you are going to put the paper that is going to go into the press and once it comes out . .. takes 3 - 4 x the footprint of the press . . . just sayin
                      "If you think you are too small to be effective
                      you have never been in the dark with a mosquito."

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