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  • #16
    Originally posted by cementary View Post
    That's true, for sure. But. Some years ago we were into staccato implementation badly. Willing to print everything with it, market it to our customers. One of our main customers told us (after some orders printed with staccato) that "staccato is good, for sure, but we do not want that". Other big customer didn't even want to hear about that — "we need 175 lpi Elliptical, that's all". Those two customers are about 65% of our market. And they giving us a lot of orders.
    Now, on the other hand we've stumbeled in the wall of "not understanding" from the higher management. But that's all another story...
    That's fine. If a customer specifically asks for a certain screening then you should give it to them...I mean, print the job according to their requirement.
    My issue is with printers who think that a one size fits all approach is the way to do business and who, as a result, don't extract the maximum value potential of their equipment and human resources.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by curiosity View Post
      Turbotom,

      Thanks for your perspective.
      Our press problems tend to be mechanical (due to wear and tear) and print integrity tends to be good overall. Our processes are well-controlled, timely and calibrated.
      I should have said that I anticipated the potential for over-emulsification. However, I wonder if that can be controlled and/or kept at bay, so to speak?
      Do you think it's possible to run 30, two pass runs daily at DMAXX? Or more realistically run only a fraction of the work at DMAXX?

      If anyone knows of anyone that actually runs DMAXX daily, that person's perspective would be most appreciated.
      Meanwhile, the feedback you all have offered is very helpful.
      it doesn't matter much in my opinion if you call it DMAXX, or if you call it OVER inking. Regardless of how you define it the results will be the same. For you to ask how many jobs can be safely run with elevated ink densities I would say Zero. The reason I say zero is that there are far too many variables to be able to assign a number. Speaking in very general terms I will say this.... If your equipment is kept in good mechanical order, and manned by fully competent press crews then you've got a better chance. But even then, there are variables, that in my opinion MOST (and I stress the word most) office staff, and pre press staff can not anticipate. This is one of the main reasons that ive repeatedly on this forum, advocated for a dedicated and fully competent pressroom supervisor to be liaison between management, pre press staff and the guys actually doing the job of ink on paper. As mentioned in an earlier post on this thread by Gordo, the general consensus is similar to his, in that pressman are all afraid to run ink densities up. Very often pressman feel uncomfortable with elevated SIDs because they have a better understanding of when you can and when you cant get away with them high SIDS. It should be a companies expectation that pressman do know when the limits of safe running, but at the same time be willing to listen to these same guys even when its not exactly what they want to hear. For me to outline here all the variables would require far too much time, and an attention span for many readers thats likely to Peter out long before im done.
      This is very reason that your press crews and supervisors for the most part are worth every dime they get paid.

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      • #18
        Thanks Turbo.
        Although we are pretty tight overall, there continues to be rough spots when anyone (namely myself) suggest testing different approaches to printing. We can talk about it, but when a pressman says I wouldn't do it, but literally clams up when asked why, I feel that is less than desirable in a professional workplace. Then again, maybe their response is due to lack of knowledge...even with 30+ years of experience, which I find to be unfortunate. In unrelated queries, our pressmen have been invaluable to our overall printing process. And that is why I am reaching out to others. Regardless, the tests continue and the results are promising. I imagine that if we were to adopt some sort of extended gamut printing, our pressmen's day to day responsibilities would also require some adjustments.
        Exactly what those are, I do not know. And again, that's why I'm asking.

        If you have the patience in sharing any variables of which you hesitated to disclose originally, I assure you that your comments will be well received, and attentively!

        Comment


        • #19
          [QUOTE=turbotom1052;n275880]

          it doesn't matter much in my opinion if you call it DMAXX, or if you call it OVER inking. Regardless of how you define it the results will be the same. For you to ask how many jobs can be safely run with elevated ink densities I would say Zero. The reason I say zero is that there are far too many variables to be able to assign a number. Speaking in very general terms I will say this.... If your equipment is kept in good mechanical order, and manned by fully competent press crews, and have a pre press dept that will actually listen to the pressroom, then you've got a better chance. But even then, there are variables, that in my opinion MOST (and I stress the word most) office staff, and pre press staff can not anticipate. This is one of the main reasons that ive repeatedly on this forum, advocated for a dedicated and fully competent pressroom supervisor to be liaison between management, pre press staff and the guys actually doing the job of ink on paper. As mentioned in an earlier post on this thread by Gordo, the general consensus is similar to his, in that pressman are all afraid to run ink densities up. Very often pressman feel uncomfortable with elevated SIDs because they have a better understanding of when you can, and when you cant get away with those high SIDS. It should be a companies expectation that pressman do know when the limits of safe running, but at the same time be willing to listen to these same guys even when its not exactly what they want to hear. For me to outline here all the variables would require far too much time, and an attention span for many readers thats likely to Peter out long before im done. If you really want the list then I suggest that your staff your pressroom wisely and listen to them. If your a company that refuses to listen to the lowly press operators then you could always pay me a consulting fee, but I can tell you the crash course is going to take more than a week!!!


          Comment


          • #20
            Interesting topic. When I was involved in offset packaging printing at Tetra Pak, about 30 years ago, running higher densities was quite common. We had target densities but customers tended to want more pop and densities were run higher. I suspect packaging printing has never been too worried about pushing densities to get a specific look in the product.

            In the discussions, there are comments about problems with running higher densities. I am sure there are issues but if it is partially a matter of control, then I wonder if anyone has experience with running higher densities on a press that has inpress density control technology? It would be interesting if there were some comments from them. I won't bother to comment on the positive ink feed potential.

            Higher densities with respect to Dmaxx imply printing a thicker ink film. So there is a concern about printing thicker ink films. Just a thought. Newspaper presses run with lower strength inks and due to their speed, they also tend to run lower viscosity inks. Therefore they run with higher ink films than commercial presses for an almost similar print density. They do it everyday. Maybe the positive ink feeds on some of these presses help.

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            • #21
              Copying and pasting your first 11 lines, then adding 2 more...was that an attention test to see if I'd read it all?
              Nice.
              And like I said previously, "...our pressmen have been invaluable to our overall printing process." Does that sound like we don't listen to our lowly pressmen? But of course, that's only when they join the conversation. I'd like to think there are pressmen that can and will openly discuss any press related matter. However, that hasn't been my experience.
              Close to the chest is the norm...as if there job is threatened by someone who asks questions.
              As for consulting...who knows...maybe we'll get to that point and reach out to you.

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              • #22
                My apologies for the out of order reply....I was addressing Turbo.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Ok im going to address both Eric and Curiosity in this one post. First Eric... I dont feel that packaging printing is the best example for safely running thick ink films. The reason being is that often, and I stress the work often, packaging printing consists of mostly PMS colors or custom flat colors that stand alone on the sheet. One of the many problems I associate with laying down thick ink films is that a single layer of thick ink, will usually pose no problems when it comes to setoff and blocking when done with all the proper precautions in place. Its when you layer multiple heavy ink films on top of each other that things start going wrong. This multiple layering of 4 colors as is the case with lots of commercial printing applications has many looking for them ultra dense rich black builds, that can easily push the envelope of safe printing. That being said there would be my first suggestion to Curiosity for consideration. There are some industry standards that need to be adhered to when printing them so loved rich blacks. These standards are interpreted by by many to be negotiable when its convenient to do so. I would suggest that once your company adopts a set of standards that is capable of producing setoff free printing of rich blacks in ALL conditions that you dont deviate, even when encouraged by a customer to "give me more ink". I hesitate to even offer any numbers because I firmly believe that this issue needs to be addressed on a case by case basis, under the guidance of a pressroom pro. Just to name a couple of variables would include. Type of paper, inline aqueous coating or not, quality of the paper and pigment load of the ink, and even the position of the above mentioned rich black images on the sheet. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that the placement of the image on a sheet has much to do with the images rick black portions ability to be resistant to setoff. Its all about weight distribution!!! An image pushing the limits of TIDs placed near the middle of the sheet has better weight distribution around the perimeter of the rick black area, than does an image with high TIDs placed very close to to any of the sheets edges. Now be honest... how many pre press guys do you have working for you that posses that level of detail??? This is the sort of scenario that sets off a red flag to a fully competent press pro, or in the absence of that level of experience, a fully competent pressroom supervisor. It still boggles the mind when I think how many companies will have a dedicated supervisor for every dept within the company except for the pressroom, which in most cases is the highest cost center under your roof. Not only is the pressroom the highest cost center but its also the dept. that produces what your customer will actually see and judge your company by. This concludes my lesson for the day on safe running of thick ink films. My fingers are sore and im getting hungry for breakfast. Hope ive offered some insight Curiosity that will be useful.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by turbotom1052 View Post

                    .. I dont feel that packaging printing is the best example for safely running thick ink films. The reason being is that often, and I stress the work often, packaging printing consists of mostly PMS colors or custom flat colors that stand alone on the sheet.

                    One of the many problems I associate with laying down thick ink films is that a single layer of thick ink, will usually pose no problems when it comes to setoff and blocking when done with all the proper precautions in place. Its when you layer multiple heavy ink films on top of each other that things start going wrong. This multiple layering of 4 colors as is the case with lots of commercial printing applications has many looking for them ultra dense rich black builds, that can easily push the envelope of safe printing. .
                    My specific experience with offset packaging printing was with CMYK plus a spot colour. Also it was on a web press and it ran with EB inks, so set off was not an issue for us.

                    I would not think anyone should print 4 layers of ink. Maybe it is tried but it does not seem like a good idea. I think there should be a limit of only two layers of ink at the most in anyone spot when wet trapping.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Erik Nikkanen View Post

                      My specific experience with offset packaging printing was with CMYK plus a spot colour. Also it was on a web press and it ran with EB inks, so set off was not an issue for us.

                      I would not think anyone should print 4 layers of ink. Maybe it is tried but it does not seem like a good idea. I think there should be a limit of only two layers of ink at the most in anyone spot when wet trapping.
                      in commercial printing it is not at all unusual to see some rich black builds come in at a totals approaching 300 %. My feeling is that you MIGHT get away with that zonally total ink, if your at the very least inline coating the job, and if you have strongly pigmented ink. It should go without saying, but I will say it anyway, that this is assuming that you have fully competent press staffing and decent equipment with a fully functioning powdering unit. A pretty good indicator that you are exceeding the safe TOTAL dot percentages would be if your sheets are setting off from the very top of freshly printed pile. A typical scenario would be the blame game that goes on when a pre press dept exceeds the safe numbers and then the pressroom gets blamed for the inevitable setoff or blocking issues. My answer to management whenever this goes on is to ask them if we should run the job racking in stacks of 1?
                      Last edited by turbotom1052; 05-17-2018, 08:53 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Turbo,
                        From my OP:
                        So what negative impact might that have on our press if we adopt DMAXX as our standard?

                        I'm not asking about the separations (or paper, or coating or....). TID is on me. To be frank, our pressmen don't even know what TID is! (or are they just keeping it close to their chest? - geesh) And yes, before you say it, I too think that's abysmal. Our prepress personnel, I'm grateful to announce, actually do know about placement, which they learned from our pressmen. They listened. They learned. Unfortunately, it's not always a two way street.

                        I said it before, and I'll repeat it again...I have confidence that our process controls are fairly tight. Our maintenance regiment on press has been called "excessive" by more than just a few. And most of us here at this company agree.

                        Lithocrafter's response about "ink fly" directly addressed my OP. Ink misting throughout the press is a scary scenario. What a nightmare. Can't imagine how to deal with that one. And honestly, if true, I'll be looking for alternatives to extended gamut printing, which I know there are more options. Currently, I'm employing methods that don't require new materials...yet.

                        So y'all know, I'm looking for answers elsewhere as well, and I will post any revelations as they are revealed. I checked out that list of XCMYK printers that tested with Idealliance. So happens that Komori was on that list, and we use their presses. So I reached out to them and a few more on that list too.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Hello curiosity,


                          My advice to you - is arrange a visit from "Gordo"

                          Question: Do any of your Printers/Pressmen, have any Printing Industry Qualifications ??


                          Regards, Alois
                          Last edited by Alois Senefelder; 05-17-2018, 01:05 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by curiosity View Post
                            Turbo,
                            From my OP:
                            So what negative impact might that have on our press if we adopt DMAXX as our standard?

                            I'm not asking about the separations (or paper, or coating or....). TID is on me. To be frank, our pressmen don't even know what TID is! (or are they just keeping it close to their chest? - geesh) And yes, before you say it, I too think that's abysmal. Our prepress personnel, I'm grateful to announce, actually do know about placement, which they learned from our pressmen. They listened. They learned. Unfortunately, it's not always a two way street.

                            I said it before, and I'll repeat it again...I have confidence that our process controls are fairly tight. Our maintenance regiment on press has been called "excessive" by more than just a few. And most of us here at this company agree.

                            Lithocrafter's response about "ink fly" directly addressed my OP. Ink misting throughout the press is a scary scenario. What a nightmare. Can't imagine how to deal with that one. And honestly, if true, I'll be looking for alternatives to extended gamut printing, which I know there are more options. Currently, I'm employing methods that don't require new materials...yet.

                            So y'all know, I'm looking for answers elsewhere as well, and I will post any revelations as they are revealed. I checked out that list of XCMYK printers that tested with Idealliance. So happens that Komori was on that list, and we use their presses. So I reached out to them and a few more on that list too.
                            I can assure you that if your pressman knew what TID was some of them would be holding you to it if your company deviates too far from industry standards. I say some of them because there are always a mix of sheep in with the batch of leaders. Its the sheep that just blindly OBEY and take the spankings whenever a job gets screwed up on press as a result of something they had no control over. If you have guys working for you that hold back knowledge and refuse to openly contribute to the team effort then I think they should be shown the door. As far as damage to your press other than making a mess that can be cleaned off I can think of nothing.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Turbotom,


                              Question: which is it to be 1) TID or 2) SID or 3) IFT , ? In Europe we use the term "Solid Ink Density" which is term used throughtout the Printing World including the USA !!


                              Regards, Alois

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by curiosity View Post
                                Thanks Turbo.
                                Although we are pretty tight overall, there continues to be rough spots when anyone (namely myself) suggest testing different approaches to printing. We can talk about it, but when a pressman says I wouldn't do it, but literally clams up when asked why, I feel that is less than desirable in a professional workplace. Then again, maybe their response is due to lack of knowledge...even with 30+ years of experience, which I find to be unfortunate. In unrelated queries, our pressmen have been invaluable to our overall printing process. And that is why I am reaching out to others. Regardless, the tests continue and the results are promising. I imagine that if we were to adopt some sort of extended gamut printing, our pressmen's day to day responsibilities would also require some adjustments.
                                Exactly what those are, I do not know. And again, that's why I'm asking.

                                If you have the patience in sharing any variables of which you hesitated to disclose originally, I assure you that your comments will be well received, and attentively!
                                Its my strong belief that every once in awhile management needs to humble themselves enough to step out of their roles as managers, and try to see themselves through the eyes of their employees. I dont know you or your company Curiosity, but I will say that ive seen the following enough times to consider it commonplace. Pressroom personal are held to the fire for issues that have nothing to do with them, and everything to do with poor choices on managements part. These choices can be anything form over scheduling work and rushing jobs through the pressroom so as to avoid costly overtime, or continuously looking to buy sub par consumables in order to get costs under control. Often these practices result in a loss of quality control that gets blamed on the pressroom. Having to work under them sort of conditions is a real moral killer, and I can assure you that if your company is anything like ive just described there are pressroom personal gathering at the local watering holes to vent their frustrations with management amongst each other. You won't see them here venting because unless they can be totally anonymous they are in fear for their jobs. The only reason im here doing this is because ive worked on both ends. Ive managed pressrooms and run presses for the better part of 40 years. Im now retired so its safe for me to say these things.
                                A typical scenario ive seen far too many times would be that a customer bounces a job for XYZ reason that has nothing to do with poor pressman ship. Of course a meeting is called to give out either verbal or written warnings ect. After a good chewing out some conclusions are drawn as to what went wrong and a new SOP is put into place to prevent this sorta thing from ever happening again. This new SOP is often nothing more than a band aid on a gunshot wound. The new SOP proves to be too time consuming, or cuts into profits and is in short order abandoned, and things return to the way they were. Given all that, is it any wonder that press crews might not be very forthcoming with offering suggestions to improve things. If anyone in management reading this recognizes themselves or their company then the question becomes what are YOU going to do about it???

                                Comment

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